Eliteness

Post Reply New Topic

Its always the people that have never done it who say that. Science studies aren't proof of anything.

Of course, maybe everyone is just doing something stupid? I mean, some of them sit like that for hours. Must suck (but why would they do that?)

How did the Japanese conform? On agreement? Pretty much any social conforming they did is comparable to today's, probably even less so. No MTV

Empirical studies are a very good proof of something. The people who don't take the happy mushrooms don't feel the rainbow blanket of enlightenment either. The point that must be stressed though is that there are more solid ways to get to truth, then there are methods that have no valid logical reason to be accepted as true. Science is forced to conform itself to tests, studies, and logical reasonings for its claims, meditation does not have any basis in empiricism nor does it necessarily have to be rational.
They like it and enjoy it. I don't judge on those things I don't care. I know I would not enjoy doing that because I prefer seeing and being with the world. Other folks enjoy different things though.

Japanese culture is known for conformity and stresses interdependence over dependence to a great extent. They define themselves by their groups. That is a major part of their culture. People who watch MTV or have little cliques still are more independent than the Japanese. The Japanese pride themselves on their social conformity where as most westerners have some desire to be individuals.

In other words, your opinion on this is useless since you've not practiced it, only read "scientific studies" that are bent on conclusions so people like you can read someone else's words and experiences and just "assume." This is very independent of you, to take some other people's words (who have also not practice, mind you) and adopted them.

I could tell you a nice medical story of mine where Meditation cured a stomach problem of mine after 4 years of "suffering" (and cleared my mind) but you read a scientific study that negates that from happening (and therefore, didn't happen).

This is like you arguing that 'walking out in space sucks' - you've not done it.



Seeing and being with the world as you discuss this topic and others on the internet, the "cyber world" if you will



Perhaps, just one time, instead of generalizing everything, why don't you give some specific examples.

You think they are free, Americans? I think they are just peasents like everyone else with an illusion of freedom. The snap of Bushes fingers, you are in Iraq, even when near half the country doesn't want that. Hell, Canada has more freedoms then America does and we don't even base our whole lives around that fact.

I'm not commenting on the Japanese nor will I defend them until you suggest something to defend rather then one big generalization

I never mentioned any scientific study, I only mentioned that meditation is not a good way to know the certainty of anything and that empiricism or logic must be used instead. As well, do not presume my independence considering that the conclusions that I have come to to defy norms very often.
I never stated anything about the medical aspects of meditation. I find it likely that meditation can have positive results if only due to the placebo effect, as well, a scientific study on this matter does not make any claims on whether or not a stomach problem's disappearance can coincide with meditation. However, they can make claims on whether or not meditation is effective for the general populace or whether or not claims such as yours are necessarily valid.
No, this is more like me claiming that one cannot discover the temperature of fish eggs by walking out into space. I denied the ability of meditation to discover truth because there is no way for it to be verifiable nor does it logically follow for that.

Considering that I also use this for information and other things and that I usually have to be stuck at this computer anyway I don't mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_v ... s_and_Self

"Social conformity . . . is no sign of weakness but rather the proud, tempered product of inner strength."

as well, the bottom on Western problems with Japanese cultures. Now of course you can see these aspects as good things, I tend to see their communal nature as rather bad though preferring the rationalism and individualism stressed by western culture as the good things that have given it strength. One must also remember that the Japanese were a society that cherished their Emperor in WW2 and that ended up being very warlike before then and stagnant before Europeans arrived.

oh and also something on Japanese suicide. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 071805.stm

Yep, I think most people in the 1st world have a high amount of freedom relative to the world and to history. The only ones freer are the hermits and they gave a lot, too much even, for that freedom. Wow, that shows a lot of insight into US politics, I mean, Bush is our Godking!! Anyway, Bush cannot tell people what to do for the most part, he is a lame duck president and he cannot impose the draft without congress, congress being a group that doesn't like him. Canada is relatively free as well, and I'd say that Americans base their lives on living, freedom is just our favorite line of rhetoric and it still is true that we are relatively free compared to the world and to history.

Ya, they do defy norms. In fact, I think your purpose is to actually go against norms because it makes you feel different or stand out when your "anti-norm" opinions are highly flawed. This is how you think 'individuality' works. I see a bunch of posers who dress differently for attention, myself. I'm one of the most independent people I know but you wouldn't know by looking at me. How can you? Its my "self" thats independent, not my "image"



Well let's see. I had heartburn for 4 years. Started my meditation practice. Haven't had it since about July (started meditating deeply in June of this year). But you are right, probably didn't coincide.

OH, btw, this "science" you hold so dear to your heart, like an extreme muslim holds the idea of blowing himself up to his, failed: Pepcid A/C and Nexium, both designed to cope with heartburn - they failed! Reason being was that the heartburn derived from states of minds, ranging from depression to anxiety and stress. While the pills counteracted what my stomach was doing (as a result of how my mind was operating), they did not cure it as they are more a 'bandaid' solution. My mind was still churning the same stress/depressing thoughts which made my stomach turn which caused me to take more science, I mean pills. Meditation changed the mind's thoughts and dug them out of states of anxiety, depression, which caused my stomach to no longer react to the mind 'states' and the result was an actual "prevention" of heartburn. This is how it "scientifically worked" which is why "stress reduction" is a cure. The mind controls everything about you, whether you want to believe it or not and chemical reactions, which science proves, start happening. Ever see those high stressed policeman in t.v. or movies pounding back 'Pepto Bismol?' The reason that little gag is "funny" is because humour is spawned from "truth" and "pain." The truth is the stress DOES cause digestive problems. Science or not, its still truth and WAS truth before science.

But, again, ignore that. It was a placebo. You obviously don't have much information on the minds 'effects' to the human body. Engage that information for more as you place too much emphasis on science, alone. As well, placebo's are states of the mind, themselves, in thinking that they WILL work (then they do). Askjeeves WHY 'placebo's' work rather then just chalking the answer TO a placebo - understand the science behind it.



Oh, and science does? What are you verifying science against? I guess if you're closed minded on it, sure. Please stop abusing the word and idea and form of decision making called 'logic.' Not everything is "logical" because YOU said it was.

LOL at the fact you said Japanese are warlike. MAN! You are SO linear thinking, its REALLY starting to get to me but staying cool.
*cough* yes, Japanese are war lovers. Europeans first discovered war when they ran into Japanese. Crusades, WW1, etc. Those didn't exist. *cough*

Jesus, you place Western society on some 'holier then everything else' model. It really isnt. It is because you LIVE in it. You know it.. We call that . . . experience.

As for their suicide rates: #1 America has suicide rates (maybe not as high?) #2 America has more MURDER. I'd prefer suicide over murderers but whatever, Long live America.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita



Ya, well, regardless of anything you or I have said, America's definition of "freedom" isn't what the actual word is so we can stop using what America and Canada ARE NOT.

Except that it isn't and many of them are not flawed. Ok, I really don't know you well enough to know how independent you are, I know you are independent

I said it is possible that one caused the other, but I also said that studies are necessary to know more about such things. Too often without controls we see tendencies that may not exist.
Ok, I know that stress can cause such problems you never said you had stress and I did not infer that you did have stress. You said something about having stomach problems and I took the info that you gave me. As well, you gave no proof that science "failed" because pepto isn't guaranteed to cure every single problem and as such it won't cure every single problem, like you said, scientifically stress can cause other bodily problems, I agree with that and I would bet that most scientists would agree as well. As well, you even admitted that Pepto worked, it made your stomach calmer. Now pepto is by no means a psychologist so of course it didn't cure your stress. Your claims on science are ridiculous and you seem to reject it because it didn't give you what it never promised to give you.
With the information you gave I could not tell if it was or wasn't the placebo effect because you never gave a cause. You gave me insufficient data then you berate me on how stress caused your problems and deride science because my tentative explanations could not find your secret variable. I do not place too much emphasis on science though I just am not a doctor and you never gave the descriptions that would have aided me to a proper conclusion.

Science at least provides explanations, reasons, and is based upon data. As well, if nothing is logical then knowing truth is an impossibility. I would still claim that everything follows logic and logical rules based upon the nature of existence.
I pointed that out because you derided the Europeans for being so warlike and so therefore I showed that the Japanese were warlike, I was attacking your idea of the perfect culture with that jab. Not only that but if I would have attacked anything about the Japanese way of war I would have attacked the dogmatic ways in which they went to war.
Well, it is pretty good and I do prefer the individualism of western society than of oriental. It may be partially because I know that I am more capable of existing in a wester society than a japanese one. I tend to think that it is because western cultures have more freedom and are more accepting of that against the norm, given that Japan is notably one of the more homogenous nations while western societies tend to have more diversity, and probably suffer from it as well to some extent.
Every country has suicide rates!! ! Japanese suicide rates are higher though. http://www.who.int/mental_health/preven ... index.html America does have more murder though, and this is largely because its problems are more in the open rather than hidden, which relates to a statement I made earlier. The people who would be murderers in Japanese society just break down and live in their rooms and are called Hikikomori. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori#Japan Yes, it does have its own name there. The reason for this happening is because these individuals have difficulty living in their high stress culture, "The Japanese education system, like those found in China, Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea, and similar to the school systems in India, is demanding upon the youth. A multitude of expectations, high emphasis on competition, and the rote memorization of facts and figures for the purpose of passing entrance exams into the next tier of education in what could be termed a rigid pass-or-fail ideology, induce a high level of stress." Not only that but also based off of the complexities of Japanese culture and the way that they mask their desires with their façade and conformity to what is expected. I would rather have an individualistic culture without these high expectations for us, even with murder than to live in a high expectation culture that I would clash and collapse in.

What??? I really don't get what you mean by that. I don't even recall America owning a definition of freedom. Canada and the US are relatively free nations though, just look at historical oppression and the oppression that occurs so often across the world, it is noted that we are free.

Studies are NOT life.

This is covered in psychology; studies being done will never be 100% perfect, especially with humans. If they were, we'd be miles ahead of where we are but there are so many variables its hard to point out what is specifically doing what.



I may not have given you specifics, I apologize.

I admitted these pills "worked" in 'fixing' the problem, but not curing it. My point was that I cured it with nothing more then my own mind and body. The point was that science is NOT perfect. Problem with science is that its profitable.

Should we discuss the whole science behind cognitive thinking or just skip it? What does 'thinking positive' do for the mind and body? I'll tell you; lots - I've been down both roads. Its related to science and medicines (specifically, depression). Now, as for science, does science ever mention the effects or help meditation may provide? I went to a doctor for my heartburn and not once was it recommended - turns out it was the key - no one profitted though. Eastern medicine is different for many reasons.

Ever question why Pharmaceutical companies ream in more and more profits every year? Its a business. Canadian Pharmacist are asking the Government to institute a bill to block Americans from buying up all our pills. Apparently, in America, the Pharmaceutical company is a "monopoly" and the way to get around the costs of prescriptions was for yanks for buy it from Canada. Science? Greed? All that good s**t at play on this one. This is peoples HEALTH we are talking about, too.



Let me steer the conversation away from you and your pity back to the topic at hand. Please look into "WHY" a placebo would work.



Hmm.. Meditation also will provide answers and explanations. More then you would ever realize, just not in a handy printout. And funny you bring in "nature" as meditation is something that is more related to 'nature' then 'science.'



All civilizations will be involved in war, we can agree on that. Dogmatic ways? Ya, again, Europe aint free from that. Hell, the way America is with the Middle East . . .



I'd agree with that. What can you do? Probably let time smooth it out



You do not fully understand their conformity. As an aspie, you KNOW people here conform socially - this is why you are an aspie, because you do not grasp this.

Again, you can be an individual, thats fine, and I will correct the impression that I think "Japanese culture" is perfect (when its not), but I will add the 'strict' way of living is more beneficial. You posted a link to 'Hikkomori' which is a fine argument for TODAYS Japan, but did not exist before they entered the global world.



What I meant is stating a country as 'free' when it ISNT is 'wrong.'

We'd be more free if we were more disciplined but one wouldn't take advantage of it after.

Hunh?? I did not say studies were life.
Yeah, I know that is true. The only thing is that psychologists are getting better and better at isolating variables. The problem ends up being with specific cases and incomplete data that it is impossible to determine what causes what. The quality of your experience cannot be analyzed as well as if it

No problem, I just don't like being attacked for not seeing what was not given.
The only thing is that the pills were not designed to cure the problem, pepto bismol is not designed as an agent to fix psychosomatic problems but rather for conventional stomach aches. Science did not claim to be perfect, the only thing is that it has a good methodology, but if our scientific information would be perfect then there would be no study of it. The profitability of science means that we pursue it, if it weren't profitable there would be far less of it.
I don't think that discussing thinking really is that important, it will just annoy me and waste your time. Positive thinking has positive effects though. Not all doctors trust meditation as a cure, and may not be as familiar with it as a cure.
Yeah, I know it is a business. That is no surprise, many Americans have recognized that canadian drugs are cheaper. In America pharmaceutical companies have a monopoly on certain drugs in order to yield them profits as a reward for having a new medicine, this monopoly eventually dies off after a few years and generic versions of these medications then come out. Uh, yeah, it is people's health, is that supposed to mean something? The only thing is that these drugs do not create themselves and Canadians simply have a different system for handling medication, which may include price controls and other interventions by the government.

Uh, I know that placebos can work. I am not surprised by that and do not think it is anything mystical either.

Meditation can only legitimately give you the same answers as logic but cannot bring in more data. Science studies the nature of existence, that is its link to nature.

Wow, you mean the whole dissent thing going on and low popularity isn't a sign of lacking dogmatism??? I am surprised. The only thing is that Europe and America both tend to be strongly individualistic which is not a sign of high dogmatism. The US can be nationalistic but they are also very individualistic which sort of balances that out.

Meh, don't care. Arguing builds thinking skills anyway.

Well of course I know that people conform socially. The only thing is that the fact that they have these terms for it and problems with it that are greater than those we have is an indication of something. I am an aspie though because I have weaknesses in grasping it, I can grasp some elements of it given the length of my life.
Before the were a part of a global society they were a stagnant area caught up in their own hierarchies and problems of that nature. I don't think that a strict way of living is more beneficial and I enjoy my non-strict way of living.

But we are free.

You mean, if we had more political action like Japan? Japan isn't the big role model for democracy, they might not even really have a democracy of any form. We have 2 parties that trade off victories, they have 1 that wins all of the time. We might be more free if we had more desire for freedom. Do you realize that the 'disciplined' parts of the US are the ones that are asking for more moral support and things of that nature, it is upstart snots that challenge authority not disciplined elders.

How about this then: we beat Japan in happiness and financial satisfaction.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_f ... tisfaction

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_h ... piness-net

How about this: who has more freedom in decision making?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_f ... ion-making

US(the horrid and undesirable unfree nation) near the top, Japan at the bottom.

As well, we have less unhappy people.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_h ... -all-happy

and more life satisfaction:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_l ... tisfaction

Of course, the japanese have a lot less crime:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... per-capita

but does it justify all of the other bad aspects?

You stated that my knowledge was in mystical mumbo jumbo, though. The 'placebo effect' would be included.



Doesn't mean science will allow you to "understand." For instance, science talks about "infinity" but we do not understand it.



While American's can choose to do different things that may not be available in other societies, all I see is a bunch of herds. I don't see any individuals. I see they have the option, more or less, but I just see a bunch of the "same" walking around. So, while you may have found that Japanese society "forces" conformism, America does it "voluntarily" via fear of others judging them (I say America, its "Western")



But you don't understand! Imagine they enjoy THEIR strict way of living, as well! It was just a lot more disciplined. Remember, discipline at the individual level branches out into the societal level where we all play. Its just what they did, its not what they TRIED to do. Sure, things like "bowing" were introduced but we 'shake hands.' (which is arguably worse as per the spread of disease )



Then why is my pot costing me $10 a gram and why would I go to jail over it? Free my ass! I'm free, providing I conform to "popular thought" (right or wrong), then ya, I'm free. Smoking bans are proving a good source of freedom. Governmental restrictions on the way we do business is free (BTW, those restrictions help out RICH companies, not companies starting out (remember, people with money control politics - connection? You bet))



I'm sorry, this is where you must be confused with what I'm discussing and I've been vague to lead you on to that. I wasn't, nor was I ever discussing Japanese politics, I was discussing the Japanese way of LIFE! Japanese were more mentally disciplined - this is going back to the original topic of buddhism.

As well, America is not "democracy," its lost that element years ago. Its a democratic Dictatorship. But this is neither here nor there and I must go smoke some weed because its friday, and brother, I need to unwind (even though I did nothing at work today or all week).

You stated you studied something I didn't. I know about the placebo effect.

You are probably thinking about math and many people do not understand it that well, mathematicians do understand infinity better than most though.

I see plenty of individuals, I see heterogeneity to a good extent as few people really try to have the same social face. I don't think that Americans really conform anywhere to the same extent as the Japanese given the large amount of subcultures and random individuals we have floating around.

They don't enjoy their lives as much as we do though so imagining that they do is ridiculous. Discipline at the individual level to the extent that the japanese have it really may not be worth it as they are more herdly for it. Bowing is also a sign of subordination that existed because back in old Japan the samurai had the right to kill whomever didn't show them proper respect and as well there is significantly more culture and crap to deal with in bowing than we do with shaking hands. (bowing is probably bad for people with bad backs though.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... s-laws.png

Japan is no freer, just look on the map. As well other western nations do not have the same restrictions. Issues such as this are why we must look at relative freedom as opposed to any absolute scale because few people actually think that absolute freedom is a good idea, I'd imagine that this includes most libertarians as well. BTW, Japan is big on government business interaction so don't point the finger at the US and ignore the fact that the Japanese government is not as economically free as the US.

Their politics is a part of their way of life though. The Japanese have a one party system and never do anything about it. That almost seems like less democracy than we have doesn't it? Some scholars even argue that Japan isn't even democratic for that reason.

America is a republic, it has always been a republic and it is more democratic now then it was at its founding. We vote for our politicians and we have thrown out bums whenever we get tired of them. It is not a dictatorship though, the claim is ridiculous.

This is getting senseless. I can argue against this and you will be able to argue that because its TOO generalized!



Stop comparing it to Japan, they aren't perfect! The argument was Buddhism, itself, not so much Japan - the thing was the Buddhism is BIG in Japan. Since globalization, its lost a lot of its identity.

And yes, Libertarians don't agree with absolute freedom. I will throw in that fact that humans cannot discipline themselves and will end up doing stupid things. Its the importance of discipline. Its why the military likes you to be disciplined. Its why martial artist are disciplined. But, ya, I'm sure its a waste.



Super! The reason this argument is generalized is because a party based out of "logic" (which would incorporate ALL governmental forms (best pending at the time)) would also not be a democracy.

I dont care if Japan is not "free." Our countries have had more time to adjust, they've had less. You'll be able to see how this difference is with the middle East entering the global economy. They are about 1000 years behind us. Its governmental evolution. Much like religions evolve, governments evolve. And yes, that is a big reason the middle East is in disputes. They are where Europe was during their crusades.



You're right, when the senate passes a bill and Bush vetoes is, yup, definition of Democracy right there. If you sought the truth, you'd see through government ANYWAYS

Uhm.... ok. You were the one that mentioned bowing, I mentioned that it was a traditional sign of subordination.

The argument was Japan, you brought up Japan, only now you really bring up the Japanese religion, and even then there are a lot of businessmen, authors, and intellects that are not buddhist, in fact, really the jews show more success than the buddhists.
So, a person cannot force him/herself on a diet and be disciplined in that nature. What libertarians don't agree with absolute freedom about is that they often don't think a governmentless society is possible and just want a reduction.

The only thing is that nobody would argue the perfection of the Japanese government, it was made by individuals and the yakuza are involved in it so it cannot be perfect.
Germany had Nazi Germany and was divided into east and west and they still tend to be better.


No, if you sought the truth, you'd recognize that we had always intended for our government to work that way with checks and balances. I called it a republic, and I call Bush our elected president who we gave the power to do this about 2 years ago. This is how it is designed to work and frankly I think that veto is a good thing as well. If it were a dictatorial thing then Bush would be able to order people around, he cannot and as such it isn't dictatorial.