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xenon13
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17 May 2013, 9:16 am

Corvees and forced labour and the like are the sorts of things very unequal feudal-style societies do and I think they want a return to this and it must be normalised in people's minds.



trollcatman
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17 May 2013, 9:27 am

OddButWhy wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
ghoti wrote:
For the US Constitution, the 13th Amendment reads:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.



But for some reason, rulings seem to ignore this amendment such as in compulsory volunteerism or conscription into the military.


Technically you can refuse the community service. You won't graduate, but beyond that they can't force you.
(I'm still against it though)


I'm not a lawyer, but it does seem that a constitutional argument could be made that public (ie state-funded) schools cannot deny a diploma just because a student refuses to do mandatory volunteering outside of school. Or maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.


Many types of education require internships or apprenticeships before someone can graduate. They could say the community service is for installing a work ethic or getting work experience or some such nonsense. But I'm also no lawyer. Here in the Netherlands almost all education is state-funded for most part.



OddButWhy
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17 May 2013, 10:03 am

trollcatman wrote:
OddButWhy wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but it does seem that a constitutional argument could be made that public (ie state-funded) schools cannot deny a diploma just because a student refuses to do mandatory volunteering outside of school. Or maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.


Many types of education require internships or apprenticeships before someone can graduate. They could say the community service is for installing a work ethic or getting work experience or some such nonsense. But I'm also no lawyer. Here in the Netherlands almost all education is state-funded for most part.


I get what you're saying, and here in the US many education levels get at least some state funding, but I believe the difference lies in whether the educational institution is voluntary or not. In the case of an apprenticeship to become an electrician, say, or an internship in your chosen field in order to graduate college, the student is not being forced into the particular career or institution by the government. In the case of a public high school, attendance is compulsory: the student has no choice but to attend and to comply with its dictates or not get a diploma.

In my mind another problem with mandatory volunteering is the potential for abuse of the system to favor particular causes, like the favorite charity of the administrator in charge of the "volunteering" program. Students could be steered toward certain activities either by creating a restricted list of "approved" volunteer activities, or more subtly by providing a list of "suggested" activities. I'm sure there are other ways of pushing students toward desired volunteering, but these two sprang immediately to mind.



pawelk1986
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19 May 2013, 4:24 am

Taking about volunteerism

I wonder if there are countries where there is consumption to the army.
In Poland, a consumption was abolished in 2011, because many of my countrymen avoided consumption . Since the Polish Army is fully professional applications very much.
You can not force anyone to care if someone does not want to.

PS. I submitted to consumption  in 2004, but stupid doctors turned me down :D



AngelRho
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19 May 2013, 6:00 am

OddButWhy wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
OddButWhy wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but it does seem that a constitutional argument could be made that public (ie state-funded) schools cannot deny a diploma just because a student refuses to do mandatory volunteering outside of school. Or maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.


Many types of education require internships or apprenticeships before someone can graduate. They could say the community service is for installing a work ethic or getting work experience or some such nonsense. But I'm also no lawyer. Here in the Netherlands almost all education is state-funded for most part.


I get what you're saying, and here in the US many education levels get at least some state funding, but I believe the difference lies in whether the educational institution is voluntary or not. In the case of an apprenticeship to become an electrician, say, or an internship in your chosen field in order to graduate college, the student is not being forced into the particular career or institution by the government. In the case of a public high school, attendance is compulsory: the student has no choice but to attend and to comply with its dictates or not get a diploma.

In my mind another problem with mandatory volunteering is the potential for abuse of the system to favor particular causes, like the favorite charity of the administrator in charge of the "volunteering" program. Students could be steered toward certain activities either by creating a restricted list of "approved" volunteer activities, or more subtly by providing a list of "suggested" activities. I'm sure there are other ways of pushing students toward desired volunteering, but these two sprang immediately to mind.

Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.



ruveyn
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19 May 2013, 7:39 am

AngelRho wrote:
Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.


In addition to which, "community service" is involuntary servitude and violates the 13-th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

ruveyn



pawelk1986
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19 May 2013, 8:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.


In addition to which, "community service" is involuntary servitude and violates the 13-th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

ruveyn


Sorry Ruveyn, but many "democratic" countries have Conscription to army, That can also count for " involuntary servitude" but it's not.

Almost every has constitutions based US and French constitutions. But "conscript" does not count under involuntary servitude,
We in Poland have conscription but it now abolished because my country many avoided draft, and it also caused corruption

fortunately for now we don't have "community service" but i think Volunteering is good for spirit of young people.

I am at my university I was a volunteer at the "International Days of Books," I admits did it just for the fact that I could leave class early and stay a little open-air :-)



OddButWhy
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19 May 2013, 5:12 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.


In addition to which, "community service" is involuntary servitude and violates the 13-th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

ruveyn


Sorry Ruveyn, but many "democratic" countries have Conscription to army, That can also count for " involuntary servitude" but it's not.

Almost every has constitutions based US and French constitutions. But "conscript" does not count under involuntary servitude,
We in Poland have conscription but it now abolished because my country many avoided draft, and it also caused corruption

fortunately for now we don't have "community service" but i think Volunteering is good for spirit of young people.

I am at my university I was a volunteer at the "International Days of Books," I admits did it just for the fact that I could leave class early and stay a little open-air :-)


Conscription doesn't count as unconstitutional "involuntary servitude" because the US constitution explicitly provides for Congress to make laws necessary for defense of the nation. Requiring military service is a valid use of this prescribed power. Same with requiring citizens to serve on juries - it's necessary for a functioning court system. Other forms of required service are suspect.

I agree that public-spiritedness, as exhibited in volunteerism, is a good thing. I have doubts whether requiring someone to "volunteer" actually installs the volunteering ethic in a person. I think it often has exactly the opposite effect, namely to make what should be an act of selflessness into an unwanted burden that the individual will avoid when it is no longer mandatory.



pawelk1986
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19 May 2013, 6:16 pm

OddButWhy wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.


In addition to which, "community service" is involuntary servitude and violates the 13-th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

ruveyn


Sorry Ruveyn, but many "democratic" countries have Conscription to army, That can also count for " involuntary servitude" but it's not.

Almost every has constitutions based US and French constitutions. But "conscript" does not count under involuntary servitude,
We in Poland have conscription but it now abolished because my country many avoided draft, and it also caused corruption

fortunately for now we don't have "community service" but i think Volunteering is good for spirit of young people.

I am at my university I was a volunteer at the "International Days of Books," I admits did it just for the fact that I could leave class early and stay a little open-air :-)


Conscription doesn't count as unconstitutional "involuntary servitude" because the US constitution explicitly provides for Congress to make laws necessary for defense of the nation. Requiring military service is a valid use of this prescribed power. Same with requiring citizens to serve on juries - it's necessary for a functioning court system. Other forms of required service are suspect.

I agree that public-spiritedness, as exhibited in volunteerism, is a good thing. I have doubts whether requiring someone to "volunteer" actually installs the volunteering ethic in a person. I think it often has exactly the opposite effect, namely to make what should be an act of selflessness into an unwanted burden that the individual will avoid when it is no longer mandatory.


volunteering is god thing but forcing someone is bad. In Poland, avoiding conscription ware so notorious that our government abolished it, so we now have professional army.



OddButWhy
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19 May 2013, 8:56 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
volunteering is god thing but forcing someone is bad. In Poland, avoiding conscription ware so notorious that our government abolished it, so we now have professional army.


Yep, people want to avoid just about anything compulsory, if they can.



AngelRho
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20 May 2013, 12:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Good point. Publics screwals are not above pushing political agendas on students. Making them engage in community service that their families might find objectionable could potentially serve as one more means of indoctrination.


In addition to which, "community service" is involuntary servitude and violates the 13-th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

ruveyn

We're on the same side on this one. But I'm afraid that compulsory community service in the context of public screwal requirements falls along the lines of "education." As long long as we have compulsory attendance laws, there's no getting around it unless and until enough people get fed up with it.

Besides, various forms of involuntary servitude exist in a wide range of educational contexts later on. When I did my student-teaching semester, one of the university mandates I had to follow was I was not allowed to make any money from any kind of teaching. In fact, I was paying the university to teach in a public school. If it is a part of a well-rounded education plan, I don't see how the 13th amendment can be much help in getting out of it. I think that if it must be mandatory, the students must have a say as to what they want to do to log community service hours.



ruveyn
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20 May 2013, 6:53 am

AngelRho wrote:
We're on the same side on this one. But I'm afraid that compulsory community service in the context of public screwal requirements falls along the lines of "education." As long long as we have compulsory attendance laws, there's no getting around it unless and until enough people get fed up with it.

Besides, various forms of involuntary servitude exist in a wide range of educational contexts later on. When I did my student-teaching semester, one of the university mandates I had to follow was I was not allowed to make any money from any kind of teaching. In fact, I was paying the university to teach in a public school. If it is a part of a well-rounded education plan, I don't see how the 13th amendment can be much help in getting out of it. I think that if it must be mandatory, the students must have a say as to what they want to do to log community service hours.


Your attendance at the university is/was voluntary so the consequential service that was laid on you was not involuntary servitude imposed by outright government force or by law. You chose to be in a place where rendering services was a condition of attendance which itself was voluntary.

On the other hand attendance in tax funded schools or schools regulated by the government is a different matter. Parents who do not turn their children over to individuals of doubtful competence or doubtful morality are subject to fine, property confiscation and even jail time.

ruveyn



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20 May 2013, 7:27 am

ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
We're on the same side on this one. But I'm afraid that compulsory community service in the context of public screwal requirements falls along the lines of "education." As long long as we have compulsory attendance laws, there's no getting around it unless and until enough people get fed up with it.

Besides, various forms of involuntary servitude exist in a wide range of educational contexts later on. When I did my student-teaching semester, one of the university mandates I had to follow was I was not allowed to make any money from any kind of teaching. In fact, I was paying the university to teach in a public school. If it is a part of a well-rounded education plan, I don't see how the 13th amendment can be much help in getting out of it. I think that if it must be mandatory, the students must have a say as to what they want to do to log community service hours.


Your attendance at the university is/was voluntary so the consequential service that was laid on you was not involuntary servitude imposed by outright government force or by law. You chose to be in a place where rendering services was a condition of attendance which itself was voluntary.

On the other hand attendance in tax funded schools or schools regulated by the government is a different matter. Parents who do not turn their children over to individuals of doubtful competence or doubtful morality are subject to fine, property confiscation and even jail time.

ruveyn

This is mostly true. There are alternatives to public screwal. My kids go to Catholic school, not because we're Catholic or agree with "The Church," but because honestly their school system is less distracting than the public screwals, is competitive instructionally and technologically with local private schools, and they are more effective in teaching discipline and good conduct beyond the school walls. I'd much rather homeschool my kids, to be honest, but I'm afraid I really wouldn't be helping my kids as much as a good school setting would.

Public screwals pretty much function as the lowest baseline in educational performance, depending on the area you live in, of course.

Thing is, though, minors are really at the mercy of parents who make their decisions for them. If parents like the idea of compulsory community service or administrators are good at selling it, then it unfortunately doesn't really matter what the Constitution says. The only reason why the courts have stuck it to school districts in other constitutional matters is because a few parents got angry enough about it and raised enough commotion over it to force districts to change their teaching strategies. The same kind of thing has to happen with community service, only at the moment more people seem to actually like the idea.



ruveyn
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20 May 2013, 9:33 am

AngelRho wrote:
. The same kind of thing has to happen with community service, only at the moment more people seem to actually like the idea.


Then the service is largely voluntary. We have to be careful here. In America there is a genuine charitable impulse to be found in a significant portion of the society. Ironically enough the people most likely to give of their own free will are generally not the richest or most able to afford the gift. However the majority of the society are not the Rich and Powerful. They are folks much more slender means. Yet, for some reason, they are willing to give. Go figure.

ruveyn