What do you think about abortion

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Kurgan
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16 Jun 2013, 12:02 pm

thomas81 wrote:

persian85033 wrote:

This is a very difficult topic for me. I'm Catholic and I know that abortion is wrong.

You don't. You believe that abortion is wrong. Theres quite a substantial difference.

On the other hand what is wrong is the death of Savita Halappanavar from Galway in Ireland who was expected to endure a non viable delivery even though it would kill her. The blood of that woman is on the hands of the Vatican because the doctors who refused the abortion cited Roman Catholic protocol.

Furthermore, poverty in the third world will persist as long as the reproductive autonomy of women is being curtailed. The catholic church have a lot to answer for in regards to the economic subjucation of vulnerable people in countries like Brazil, India and the Philippines.

It's no more on the hands of the catholic church than the forced lateterm abortions in China are on the hands of atheism.

MCalavera
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16 Jun 2013, 3:23 pm

Just to add (in case it's relevant), studies seem to show that fetuses after a certain point can actually listen and learn things from within the womb.

puddingmouse
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16 Jun 2013, 4:28 pm

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

persian85033 wrote:

This is a very difficult topic for me. I'm Catholic and I know that abortion is wrong.

It's no more on the hands of the catholic church than the forced lateterm abortions in China are on the hands of atheism.

The Chinese government doesn't cite atheism as a reason for performing forced late-term abortions, unlike certain doctors in Ireland. There's nothing in atheism that says 'go forced late-term abortions' - there's nothing in atheism that says anything about abortion, really. The Catholic church on the other hand, is quite explicit on the matter and its followers take note.

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ruveyn
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16 Jun 2013, 4:30 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Just to add (in case it's relevant), studies seem to show that fetuses after a certain point can actually listen and learn things from within the womb.

What studies? Give references to a scientific publication please. And have these studies been replicated?

ruveyn

MCalavera
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16 Jun 2013, 4:37 pm

It's quite impressive, isn't it? I was surprised too when I first was taught this in Psychology.

Here's a quick link I just found via Google. Once I get back from today's exam, I'll post more links if needed (I'm very sure it's been replicated but I don't have time to check now).

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 122812.php

LKL
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16 Jun 2013, 7:07 pm

Kurgan wrote:

LKL wrote:

d zef is *not* "conscious" by any standard definition of the word.

It has voluntary movements—ergo it's conscious. 12 weeks is plenty of time for a woman to find out if she's pregnant or not.

You are not correct. A zef at 16 weeks does not have "voluntary movements." It has reflexes, which do not involve the brain at all, much less any kind of volition,

Quote:

Second, IIrc the earliest surviving pre-term infant was 24 weeks, not 26, and viability is not 'certain' even at full-term but rises on a continuum from 24 weeks.

The earliest surviving infant was born at 21 weeks and 5 days,

source, please?

Quote:

FYI, fetuses have been aborted at 26 weeks—even in western countries.

No! You don't say! (/sarcasm)
The vast, vast majority of later abortions are of zefs that were wanted but turn out to be deformed, for mothers that develop health conditions that the pregnancy imperils or the treatment of which would be fatal or teratogenic, or for women who were unable to access abortion in their earlier months due to lack of funds or travel distance (ie, time off work, hotels, etc).

Quote:

In 2011 there was a sandal here in Norway where fetuses had been aborted at 22 weeks; their hearts would beat for 45—90 minutes without medical help before they died. As expected, this didn't bother any of the socialists, but pressure from the center and the right caused a massive investigation.

A heart beats in the complete absence of a brain. Heck, a heart beats in the absence of a *body.* It's part of why hearts can be transplanted from one person to another.

trollcatman
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16 Jun 2013, 7:37 pm

Is zef medicalspeak for baby or foetus?

WildTaltos
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16 Jun 2013, 7:41 pm

trollcatman wrote:

Is zef medicalspeak for baby or foetus?

zef = zygote/embryoo/foetus...or I was asuming so

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trollcatman
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16 Jun 2013, 7:51 pm

WildTaltos wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

Is zef medicalspeak for baby or foetus?

zef = zygote/embryoo/foetus...or I was asuming so

Ah, that makes sense. So it is medicalspeak

MCalavera
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16 Jun 2013, 8:38 pm

For Ruveyn:

Here's another article (with references at the bottom). Yes, it's been replicated. And original study was conducted by DeCasper.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2 ... -the-womb/

EDIT: Ignore the emotion trauma bit, it's not peer-reviewed.

LKL
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16 Jun 2013, 9:10 pm

MCalavera wrote:

...Oooor it could just be that, too bad for you, you inherited the phenotype for a depressive personality from your parents.
http://depressiongenetics.stanford.edu/mddandgenes.html

MCalavera
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16 Jun 2013, 9:48 pm

Refer to my EDIT note. I was more interested in quoting findings revealing that fetuses can actually listen and learn from within the womb. The article was just a quick one that had references to the findings concerned.

Hector
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16 Jun 2013, 9:49 pm

I sense a bit of confusion over what happened in Ireland, so I'll try to spell it out:

In Ireland a woman's right to an abortion in the case of a threat to her life is in some sense constitutionally protected, but a spelling-out of what constitutes a threat to a woman's life is not fully specified and there is no readily-available means of determining the circumstances in which an abortion may be legally performed. Savita Halappanavar died because the doctors and nurses taking care of her were afraid of the legal ramifications of performing an abortion - indeed it was a consequence of Ireland being a "Catholic country" that there was no assurance that the procedure would be legal. See here.

Instead of specifically blaming the doctors involved, I would blame the Irish politicians who were too weak and indecisive to push forward legislation of their own granting legal discretion to the doctors, which led to the death of more women than just Halappanavar. The lack of political will can be explained by the precedence for Irish governments to fall as a result of the Catholic church disapproving of policy proposals. The church's influence has weakened greatly over the last twenty years or so, but it will still be enough to severely test the present government over their commitment to finally approve abortion legislation.