Tropes vs Women in Video Games: What is your honest opinion

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It's the same way for men. I think this physique is much harder to obtain than that of any female potagonist:









They want to look pretty for their troll girlfriends and for the troll men, probably.



Unlocking new clothes is usually a non-canon gimmick and generally not important for the gameplay.



Some JRPG plus Tanya from Red Alert does not make a trend. I can mention countless examples; apart from Gabriel Knights sidekick, there's Nicole Collard from Broken Sword, Sarah Lyons from Fallout 3, Rose of Sharon Cassidy from Fallout New Vegas, Princess Rosella and Queen Valanice from King's Quest, Lara Croft from the new Tomb Raider games (as previously mentioned), female characters from fighting games (for some reason, Chun-Li doesn't put nearly as much pressure on female gamers as the male fighters put on male gamers), Faith from Mirror's Edge and Mona Sax from Max Payne 2. There are many others, but it proves that JRPGs do not define how women look in video games.



How often are male potagonists ugly? Both Nathan Drake and George Stobbart are good-looking men, despite the fact that they're supposed to be everymen.



Guess what? The very same games have revealing armors for men as well.



Lara Croft is a qualified archeologist and the point of the game is that she's supposed to use her witts to outsmart a bunch of bad guys.



In most non-RPG games, this doesn't work out.



As previously stated, RPGs have lightly dressed men as well, with physiques that are more difficult to obtain. How many men looks like this at an age of 50-something-something?

Hang on, Mass Effect allows for almost complete customisation of the protagonist and the're minimal adaptation of armour if you change genders.

http://www.badreputation.org.uk/2012/01/09/found-feminism-mass-effect-3-pre-order-box/

Also, men portrayed in games are also generally larger and more muscular than men in real life.

Look, I don't play WoW, first person shooters in generally, or usually anything that involves fighting of any kind and all your examples fall into those genres. If you want to show that there's a trend, then I'd like to see some statistics, and not statistics that only counted female characters from first-person shooters or RPG's or whatever. I'd like to see how common it is for each game genre and how it varies between genres, and for modern games. (I'd also like the study to distinguish between "Action" games and "Point and Click Adventure" games if they're doing it by genre, since most game companies nowadays call action games adventure games even though they're completely different).



Again, I don't play Resident Evil (action, not adventure remember), so I can't comment on that. Also, with regards to Kerrigan, that's why said Starcraft 1, not Starcraft 2. I know that Heart of the Swarm was criticised for what she was wearing, that's not the game I was talking about. Ashley dressed like a prostitute? That was certainly not her default outfit when she was on the Normandy.



Again, show me some statistics that show prevalent this "trend" is for each genre, then I'll consider whether it is a general trend. Not all RPG's have good customising options even for male protagonists.

Last edited by Jono on 08 Aug 2013, 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry, but stupid I can be myself. Do you like to do waste 3 months to do an exact statistic to proof me I am wrong. No. So why the hell do you think I would be that stupid?

As to Kurgan: It is not about pressure for me. You talk about pressure, which seems to me, that you mean, you feel the pressure to look like those characters. While for me its totally otherwise. I simply do NOT want to look like those. I cant identify myself in any with them, because they are nothing like I want to be. I dont dislike them because they give me a feeling of being pressured to look like that. I have no need to look like a 13 year old girl, and I definitely dont feel myself pressured to look like being ret*d or a prostitute. I am 33 years old, living in the country, building and renewing a house with my partner and simply dont feel myself related in any way to those kind of characters. I simply liked to play characters, where I have the feeling that they think in a way I would think in that situation in an game. Those character designs and emotions they have, simply destroy for me every illusion I have to be the protagonist myself, whch is part of the magic of gaming. You play, are into the game, and every second time your character opens his mouth, you think yourself, that someone please bash her for the nonsense she is talking. Or I simply cannot identify myself in any way, with that lifestyle-bitchy woman. Thats simply no part of my life, and I simply cannot relate with them. I mean I have two female friends, and both are in their own way as well not as "normal" woman. And then when I play a game, 100% of the time there is those typical type of woman in front of me, I dont understand, relate or anything and is focusing on wobbeling her ass for me, instead of doing what I would do in that situation: Simply run normal.

If I would feel a pressure to look like those characters in games, this would be at least have one positive side for me, because it would mean, that I would like in my inner self to be those characters. You talk about how super Jun-Li is. Jun-Li looks cute with her tails and her fancy blue dress and ... I am 33... I DONT WANNA LOOK CUTE. I want characters that dont look cute but serious, earnest. Cute is for little girls. When its about the new Max Payne game, there was lots of discussions, if he looks now to badass, or better badass, or lot badass. But you hardly will ever find a discussion about a male videogame protagonist, where it is discussed if that guy now looks cute, cuter or less cute. Cute sucks.

Thats what I mean, with I dont want anything changed. Goddamn it, a 15 year old girl in puberty who just needed to buy her first bra, sure wont feel well with my 10 feet nutbreaker Nornmodell named "Brunndilda" in Guild Wars 2 as well. But I simply dont feel as well with all that characters that seem to me either like offsprings of sex and the city girls or little girls.

I think everyone wants the same about gaming. Having the illusion of being part of the game. Which simply doesnt function for me, if I dislike the character I am forced to play.

I think you think to much about genders and knows hell what. But its simply like when bloodelfs were inplented on hord side and so paladins, were available. My partner normally always plays male characters. But this time he felt himself forced to play an female one. Not because of "him feeling pressured to look like his male bloodelf paladin" but simply because that "not very hetero according to classic role models" character design, speech, language, behaving ... was simply something, that he didnt feel related to in any way. He didnt feel the pressure to become anorexic. He became the pressure to punch into his display. ^^

Thats the way how I feel about many of those characters. I DONT feel any pressuer to look like those. They simply totally suck in any way. ^^

I'm not asking you to spend 3 months doing statistics, I was asking you to find statistics based on research that other people have done. All that usually takes is a google search. For example, I already found this in few minutes:

https://www.msu.edu/~pengwei/Mou%20Peng.pdf

Unfortunately, that paper still calls action-adventure games adventure games for some reason.

You keep moving the goal posts. You've been given plenty of examples of heroic women. Women are by nature physically weaker, but more agile and stealthy than men, hence, it makes more sense for a game with a female potagonist to not be about fist fighting against 220 lb men.



Lara Croft, Madison Paige, Samantha Everett and various other female characters usually say intelligent stuff.



People want masculine male characters, just like they want feminine female characters. This is no different than when girls in high school wants to have attractive friends. Like I said: You rarely find unattractive characters of either gender. B. J. Blazcowitz doesn't even talk or have any defined personality traits, yet you still see him shirtless on the Wolfenstein 3D box.



You're not forced to play anybody in a RPG. It seems to me like a lot of gamers who choose to play as female, also chooses to have the character lightly dressed, despite the fact that they have an array of different styles to choose from. Also, the ability to create a character, is a recent day luxury phenomenon.



World of Warcraft is ONE game (aimed at teenagers and 20-something people). Off course you'll find both lightly dressed women and men here.

I think these images are highly stylized and present both genders in a morphed up oversexualized state. They are fantasies and no one wants to fantasize about being ugly.

And, after much searching, I did manage to find a male character dressed in a thong:

I have been given plenty examples, and left are two I dont know of because of them being in games I dont know. And you dont listen to me. Did I write anything about Jun-Lis weight? Nope. I wrote about her being focused on being cute. Wearing a nice cute dress, having nice little cute tails... that isnt in any way necessary to fight 220lb men. She could do that with or without cute tails. But she decides to do it with cutes ponytails, which means, that she is a girl who thinks it is important to look cute. Thats nice for little girls that play that game and want to be cute as well, because they can think themselves "Wow. Look at Junli. She is cool, because she is just as cute, as I would like to be." But doesnt help you, when you DONT wanna look cute. ^^



Lara Croft seemed to me in her games pretty conceited. The other two I dont know.



From my opinion being feminine is in no way related to being lame and stupid. Its not about having an unattractive character. But I want no lame attractive character. I want an cool attractive character. Prince Ken is as well attractive - but why you hardly find his type of character as protagonists of games? Because he is attractive in an totally lame way. And there are much more way to be attractive for a woman, then looking like a barbie as well.

Thats nice for them, if they want do do that to feel good with their characters. May I feel as well good with my characters, or why exactly should that be denied to me?

[/quoet]

Yes, and this was as well only one example to make you understand, that the problem is not as you thought, that I dont want to play those characters, because of them being too cool, and so pressuring me to be that way. I am sorry, that this happens to men so rarely that characters are so totally lame to them, that they dont want to play them, that I can only give you this one example, but thanks for agreeing me, that it seems to be pretty unfair, that this happens to male gamers much more rare. ^^ Thats what I am talking about.


Whats so hard to understand about that? When its about games with male protagonists, there are strong ones, there are attractive ones, depending on the game there is a broad variety what male characters are. But normally all game developers focus on one essential thing, that the character is not annoying you all the time by being a totally lame sucker. Or that at least there is a broader variety of characters so you can find one you like. Do you think Jono would be talking all the time about that Gabriel Knight guy, if he had a totally lame appearance in the game for him, like Steve Erkel? I dont know the game, but I am quite sure, that those Gabriel Knight wont be presented as an dumb moron. Thats what a game normally is about, a cool character you like. Whats so hard to understand that I would like that as well, and that I would like it, if I didnt like games, DESPITE the lame character, but if I could like much more games BECAUSE of the cool character i LIKE as well?

Isn't this very definition of 'white people/1st world problems'? Sexist 'tropes' in video games? I can't take feminists seriously. If you dislike the way video games portray women, then start your woman-centric video game company. If more and more women are playing video games, maybe they don't care about these 'tropes' or god forbid, even LIKE THEM!?!?!?! *gasp* Are girls not allowed to like these supposedly 'sexist' games? Are they gender-traitors? Who is boxing people in with gender roles?

I don't really understand what the point of this is? What do these people want?

Is Anita the one who doesn't understand it?

Satire mocks the ones in power, not the ones not in it. A "Satire" in which the damsel in distress is the same as a flag in a capture the flag game and you can make her fatter by feeding her is awful satire and it is still sexist.

It is like you didn't even listen to what Anita was saying? This sort of silly ass "Satire" seems to be an excuse to keep on using the sexist crap, but now you get to shield yourself under the "Satire" label.

A true satire of the trope is what Monkey Island did. The Satire goes against the dominating idea, rather than reinforce it.


There is if it is at the expense of others.

While Anita Sarkeesian does make good points, she usually cherry picks games with no plotlines/excuse plots and no character development. I agree with on the fact that ironic sexism often is a false-front for real sexism, though.

I can agree in the past that women were often just used mainly as sex symbols in videogames. But I think these days that a lot of companies are obviously going against that trend and trying to write more realistic females into games. Sure they still look good, but I agree with people here who mention that male game characters are often designed to be overly good looking and have idealistic bodies too. I see it as really no different than Hollywood these days. The gender gap for characters isn't really as prominent anymore, but most fictional characters are made to be attractive, regardless of whether they're male or female.

The first two minutes of this video describing what 'deep research' meant and for what shet needed $150,000 just worth it. The video is quite good. But the two first minutes are simply GLORIOUS.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I[/youtube]

As a rule of thumb, if you didn't fund any of the 150k, you should just shut the f**k up about the money.

It is amazing how the following page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/B ... VideoGames only lists games that break the fourth wall.

Well, the problem is that I don't want to shut the f**k up. What are you're gonna do?

We're going to start thinking of you as an unpleasant person with a chip on your shoulder. Which is the usual punishment for being out of line. I'm not sure why you seem to think that the punishment would involve physical force.

You do not understand. You can be lame and good looking and not lame and good looking. Most characters in video games, even grown up ones, relie on their characters and appearances on girls in puberty. There is nothing bad about girls in puberty with their issues, as their is nothing bad about boys in puberty with their typical issues. I think we all know that puberty simply is a part of life.

Is Justin Bieber or Prince Ken physical good looking? I think yes, if not thousand of teeny girls wouldnt get wet trousers. Would you puke if there was a new "Gabriel Knight" game, and Gabriel Knight had Justin Bieber/Prince Kens face and appearance. I think lots of players would ask the producing company if they were nuts. Simply because grown up male players, hardly can identify themselves with a little boy and and their teenager appearance. So there are games that do that on purpose out of story reasons, or because of them traditionally focused on younger player.

But when its about games with an serious background, where playing a cute little kid simply dont fit, I think most of you would like to want to play a matured character, someone you can relate with. Not someone that still cares for crazy hairstyle, wearing fashion cloths .... as a Justin Bieber does. Most people simply grow out of that phase someday. That doesnt mean that you are not interested in being good looking, but this means a change of preferences what is good looking, not an teenager "sides shaved, blond uptight gel hair stroke on the upside of the head, and a pink little hairstroke at the frontface with"... While playing characters that were created according to people you accept in the way that you say "Ok, we all were teenagers once and had those issues, its not their fault." can be nice from now and then, but please not all the time. If this years boybands group would suddenly become the faces of the new Battlefield squad members, the majority of the player would say "What the f**k?" and not say: "Oh, its ok. They are good looking. Thats all I care for." And I say as well what the f**k when confronted with tons of female protagonist that either looks like a teenager girl, or still behaves like one when it comes to external appearance and behaviour.