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Tequila
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30 Oct 2013, 5:09 pm

Kurgan wrote:
If a journalist doesn't give a damn about 10,000 people executed in China annualy or the Syrian civil war, but constantly cherry picks bad stuff in Israel


You could make any country look bad if you constantly cherry picked bad things that happened there.

I'm sure a journalist could make any major European country sound like a horribly warzone were they so inclined. Simply by cherrypicking.



thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 5:10 pm

Kurgan wrote:

If a journalist doesn't give a damn about 10,000 people executed in China annualy or the Syrian civil war, but constantly cherry picks bad stuff in Israel, it's either because Israel is a free-market success story or because "the jews did it"

Its because Israel is a unique case in how it started, how it behaves and how it riles its neighbours. Its a pariah state that lives in a constant war of antagonisation by completely disregarding the rights of the people who it usurped upon. Increasingly the world is waking up to this which is why almost 200 states recognise Palestine as a country.
Kurgan wrote:
. For the last five pages on PPR, you've made several threads about Israel, but none about Iran, Syria, Saudi-Arabia, Somalia or Yemen. Why is that?

I do not solicit the approval of the anti islam lobby.


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thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 5:16 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8INDkZDnM[/youtube]


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Tequila
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30 Oct 2013, 5:19 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Its because Israel is a unique case


It bought and settled most of the land and from the very beginning did its very best to treat its neighbours as equals.

One of the earliest promoters of Zionism was Ze'er Jabotinsky, who is considered the basis for Revisionist Zionism, which is a centre-right Zionist movement in modern-day Israeli politics.

He:

Quote:
Jabotinsky’s anti-racist legacy

...

Those who read Jabotinsky’s writings knew those labels did not do him justice.

He envisioned a Jewish state that would have a large Arab minority alongside its Jewish majority. Arabs would have full civil, political, and cultural rights, including representation in parliament, and both Arabic and Hebrew would be official languages. Moreover, he argued that if there was a Jewish prime minister, there should be a deputy Arab prime minister (and vice versa).

Jabotinsky also had more than a passing interest in the question of race relations in the U.S. Following a wave of race riots that erupted in the U.S. after black boxer Jack Johnson defeated his white opponent, Jack Jeffries, in 1910, Jabotinsky wrote (in the Russian periodical Odesskie Novosti): “In the United States, the most free republic on earth, there are ten million citizens suffering a shocking lack of rights simply because of the color of their skin...Theaters are closed to the black man, as are hotels, railway cars, and schools. He is assigned special railway cars and narrow, separate compartments on trains. Schools for black children are cheaply constructed, inadequate, and dirty. The political rights of the ‘free and equal’ black citizen are non-existent.”

Ten years later, on a visit to the U.S., Jabotinsky witnessed a Ku Klux Klan march in Texas. It reinforced his disgust at racism in America. In a letter to a friend at the time, he wrote that both Jews and blacks in the U.S. would soon find it necessary to physically defend themselves against their enemies.


History is often not like how you would like to see it.

thomas81 wrote:
in how it started


It started fighting to the death for the very existence of its people under annihilation.

It fought against us Brits for their new state. The British did everything they could to stop Israel coming into existence.

Every war that Israel has ever fought has been for defence.

1948 was a defensive war fought against people that would not have felt one iota of anything were they inclined to leave Israel in peace and to recognise it.

1967 would not have happened without the ludicrous Nasser and his determination to provoke a war by closing the Straits of Tiran.

And the constant scuffles today would not happen if all the people involved did one simple thing.



thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 5:27 pm

Israel isn't interested in a two state solution anymore than the most extremist elements of the Palestinian authority are. If it were, it would bring back settlers in the west bank instead of arming them, funding them and providing them with infrastructure on settlements on land (signed and agreed by Arafat and Israel to be Palestinian territory) that are illegal even by Israeli law. Theres no need for Israelis to be there, even from a security perspective.

Israel is far too soft on the settlers. The settlers know that all they have to do is hold out a few years, and Israel will annex the land around their houses. It completely circumvents any peace deal.


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Tequila
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30 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8INDkZDnM[/youtube]


I was wondering when we'd see this clip again from you. Poor little diddums.

This is the young chap who refused to hand over his passport, yes? Which is, erm, illegal in Israel and will lead to you being arrested. Refusing to identify yourself when asked is illegal in many countries and will get you arrested. It's not a law I like, but he broke the law.

Lucas himself admitted this:

Quote:
Many of the commenters on the videos of your arrest in Jerusalem have been positive, but there have been critical ones as well. From those comments, there seems to be a common thread of disbelief about what preceded such a violent reaction. Can you explain what occurred during those few minutes that the camera does not see?

One of the most prevalent misconceptions regarding the video concerns the time frame within which the events of my arrest occurred. The scene at the opening of the video showing my interview by journalists and my subsequent harassment by the police, demanding my passport, occurred approximately forty-five minutes to an hour before the actual arrest shown in the final moments.

Ignorant of such a time lapse, many incorrectly place my violent arrest as the logical outcome of my refusal to hand over my passport.

I initially refused to hand over my passport on the grounds that I was doing nothing illegal and that I did not want the police to take down my information, for fear of trouble later. Whether or not I was justified in refusing their request for my passport (I do not know the legal details) is entirely irrelevant to the circumstance of my actual arrest forty-five minutes later.

At the later time, I was seized without warning of any kind and without request for my passport, while I was peacefully on a sidewalk in the middle of a peaceful crowd.

Therefore, I was targeted, not for the bureaucratic reason of not producing my passport, but on political grounds: observing the extensive press coverage I was receiving and angered by the fact of my being a Jewish man speaking out on behalf of Palestinian rights, the police mistakenly believed I was the “ring leader” of this “orchestrated” demonstration.

They simply could not assimilate into their narrow schema the idea of people of conscience spontaneously mobilizing to demand justice.


Oh yes, and Lucas claims that Israel is an apartheid state... then has to admit that some policemen are Israeli Arabs:

Quote:
Following your arrest why did you ask to be held in the Palestinian section of the prison rather than the Jewish one given the fact that the conditions were so much better in the one they placed you in?

Well, to be honest, when first asked my preference, I replied Jewish. I was scared and, didn’t have very much time to think. My first impulse was a cowardly one: to take the road of least resistance, which in this case was through the Jewish-only cell.

Upon hearing that, my police interrogator, believing that I shared their fear of Arabs, announced that I would be detained in the Palestinian cell, adding that he hoped I would enjoy my stay with “Ali Al Qaeda”. He made this overly racist remark, presupposing the equivalency of Palestinians to terrorists, right in front of the Palestinian-Israeli policeman sitting across from me.

In the subsequent moments, I changed my mind. Of course I would want to be in the Palestinian cell! How could there be any other choice but to stand in solidarity with the oppressed?

Regaining my courage, I willingly affirmed that I was to be put in the Palestinian cell. I now had the opportunity to break Israel’s apartheid regime from the inside, or so I thought.[


It turns out the story was more like this:

Quote:
Video documents US demonstrator's arrest in east J'lem

Jewish left-wing activist Lucas Koerner was detained for disturbing the peace after allegedly harassing marchers on Jerusalem Day.

The video of a young American Jewish activist who was forcefully arrested on Jerusalem Day near Damascus Gate has been garnering attention in the pro-Palestinian blogosphere in the past 24 hours.

...

The police said they asked Koerner to stop harassing the marchers, which is not shown on the video. When Koerner refused to give the police his passport, they arrested him for disturbing the peace. The arrest, which involved multiple policemen, was filmed by Palestinian activists. video of the arrest shows policemen wrestling him to the ground roughly and forcefully dragging him into a police vehicle, where it took five officers to force him into the van.

Jerusalem police spokesman Shmuel Ben- Ruby told The Jerusalem Post on Monday that Koerner bit a police officer during the course of his arrest, a fact which Koerner denied. He said the officer’s injuries were from something else.

“The video doesn’t excite me,” Ben-Ruby said. “It was taken after he was told he was arrested, he refused to cooperate with the police, and he bit a policeman, so there’s no reason they shouldn’t arrest him with force.”


Hm... if I was attending a march in France or Germany and I was giving abuse to the marchers and making a nuisance of myself, refusing to hand over my passport when asked and (according to the police) biting a p-olice officer during my arrest... well, put it this way, I would expect some harsh treatment. Far more harsh than this annoying weed got or would get from the Israeli police.



Last edited by Tequila on 30 Oct 2013, 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kurgan
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30 Oct 2013, 5:35 pm

thomas81 wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8INDkZDnM[/youtube]


I can cherry pick police brutality as well:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/ ... -tomlinson

Let's boycott the UK, because clearly, everyone there must be nasty beings because of this.



Tequila
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30 Oct 2013, 5:40 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Israel isn't interested in a two state solution anymore than the most extremist elements of the Palestinian authority are


It wants a two-state solution. It's wanted that before there were any settlements.

It was interested in a two-state solution before the rebirth of the State of Israel. The Arabs said no even before 1948.



Kurgan
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30 Oct 2013, 5:40 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Its because Israel is a unique case in how it started, how it behaves and how it riles its neighbours. Its a pariah state that lives in a constant war of antagonisation by completely disregarding the rights of the people who it usurped upon. Increasingly the world is waking up to this which is why almost 200 states recognise Palestine as a country.


Israel didn't usurp the land from anyone. Even the individuals who were driven away by force, were offered to move back in 1949 with full compensation. Israel is unique in that it's a Middle Eastern country that holds free elections, and allthough it has it's flaws, it's still the most democratic country in Israel.

Kurgan wrote:
. For the last five pages on PPR, you've made several threads about Israel, but none about Iran, Syria, Saudi-Arabia, Somalia or Yemen. Why is that?

I do not solicit the approval of the anti islam lobby.[/quote]

Clearly, you have no problems soliciting the so-called anti-zionists (or antisemites, which they used to identify as before the Third Reich fell).



thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 5:44 pm

Tequila wrote:
Hm... if I was attending a march in France or Germany and I was giving abuse to the marchers and making a nuisance of myself, refusing to hand over my passport when asked and (according to the police) biting a p-olice officer during my arrest... well, put it this way, I would expect some harsh treatment. Far more harsh than this annoying weed got or would get from the Israeli police.


Wrong actually. Koerner was standing peacefully, with Palestinians holding a placard. It was the Israeli marchers, in an arab neighbourhood, making a nuisance of themselves by being in contentious area while shouting racist epithets at the arabs. Its completely analogous to the Orange Order slow marching down the Garvaghy Road, playing 'the sash' at 100 decibels while shouting "Fenian bastards" between every verse.


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thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 5:49 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Israel didn't usurp the land from anyone.

Yes they did.
Kurgan wrote:

Even the individuals who were driven away by force, were offered to move back in 1949 with full compensation.

Source?
Kurgan wrote:
Israel is unique in that it's a Middle Eastern country that holds free elections, and allthough it has it's flaws, it's still the most democratic country in Israel.

Unless you're an arab.

Kurgan wrote:


Clearly, you have no problems soliciting the so-called anti-zionists (or antisemites, which they used to identify as before the Third Reich fell).


Like i said, in the years before the creation of Israel, the anti semites were the original zionists. Not much has changed because the campaign to amalgate zionism and judaism together seeks to transform Judaism into a national identity rather than what it is traditionally and historically.


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30 Oct 2013, 6:14 pm

Kurgan wrote:

There is no proof that there ever was a Palestine, nor that there ever was a separate Palestinian people. What was given back to the jews, was back then considered to be a southern region in Syria.


So wheres this? :-

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1vaIK8wlAl0[/youtube]



So what was Plan Dalet for?, and where are all the towns in this link, you can click on them all :-

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/destroyed-towns.htm

How come History books state that The Ottoman Empire and Turkey controlled Palestine between 1517 and 1917 until Turkey and Germanys defeat in the first world war if it didnt exist?

Why does the Balfour Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.JPG promise the Jews a homeland in Palestine if it didnt exist?, and why does it call for the protection of the rights of non Jews already living there if nobody lived there?

The absurd claims the zionists here make, suggest everything they say is suspect and desperate lies.



Last edited by Nambo on 30 Oct 2013, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kurgan
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30 Oct 2013, 6:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Yes they did.


The United Kingdom seems to have accepted the fact that someone usurped some of their land area, then.

Quote:
Source?


The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, by Benny Morris.

Quote:
Unless you're an arab.


Arabs are allowed to vote the same way as everyone else and allowed to use the same hospitals, schools and mass transit systems as the jews are.

Quote:
Like i said, in the years before the creation of Israel, the anti semites were the original zionists. Not much has changed because the campaign to amalgate zionism and judaism together seeks to transform Judaism into a national identity rather than what it is traditionally and historically.


You're gonna have to post some proof here. Antisemitic zionism makes no sense; zionism is just the belief that jews should have their own country--and anyone who's an anti-zionist, believe that the jews should be kicked out of Israel again.



Kurgan
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30 Oct 2013, 6:18 pm

Nambo wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

There is no proof that there ever was a Palestine, nor that there ever was a separate Palestinian people. What was given back to the jews, was back then considered to be a southern region in Syria.


So what was Plan Dalet for?, and where are all the towns in this link, you can click on them all :-

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1vaIK8wlAl0[/youtube]

And wheres this?

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/destroyed-towns.htm

How come History books state that The Ottoman Empire and Turkey controlled Palestine between 1517 and 1917 until Turkey and Germanys defeat in the first world war if it didnt exist?

Why does the Balfour Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.JPG promise the Jews a homeland in Palestine if it didnt exist?, and why does it call for the protection of the rights of non Jews already living there if nobody lived there?

The absurd claims the zionists here make, suggest everything they say is suspect and desperate lies.


Like I said, the Ottomans regarded Palestine as a southern region of Syria. It never existed as an independent country anymore than Tokelau or Newport, Rhode Island did.