Why justice is bad.

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"You have to understand the mindset of the criminal element and who you are dealing with. It's a way of thinking which you cannot change. Do I think that way? Yep. Do I act that way? Nope, cause I don't want to go to prison. If you were to get a random group of for real criminals and sit them down together, without some counselor or anything and have them talk about therapy or being taught better as a way to stop the crimes, they would laugh their asses off."

Yes, in order to properly rehabilitate someone, you'd have to understand their mind and why they do things. You also have to understand why some people don't do things. Just because you've never encountered or known someone to experience drastic shifts of mentality from prison therapy, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Seriously though, what you're saying is that you're a criminal and still participate in crimes but you're still claiming that the judicial system is keeping you on the straight and narrow. It's not though, it's only preventing SOME of your crimes.
Furthermore, YOU say that there's a criminal mindset that exists, you yourself see that there's something different in the mentality of a criminal than non-criminals.

Your mind isn't set in a specific way when you're born. Your personality isn't unchangeable. Your very identity can be stripped off and put back together given the right conditions.

Great message. So it is essentially about sorting and grading. If a person starts with a somewhat elaborate very elaborate subjective contextual framework as a premise, which premise all feels to come together for him because he in a kind of space capsule with this point of view or picture from which he is omitting essential points and including other false points to get to, then operating from such a premise in terms of having a productive enquiry is not possible, as all understanding in factored into this framework which is supported by various logical fallacies. I am, not as articulate as you....

So it is best to start with a kind of simple premise and not to include (pack) too much information into it, as it is then harder to sort out. Also, "justice" obviously means different things to different people. If in an enquiry one takes on the meaning of 'Justice" as given or implied by someone else, he has to sacrifice his own meaning, but the meaning of someone else as to what is justice may contain logical fallacies, or his own may, or both:-) And people have varying agendas or hidden cards in regard to discussing this subject from various angles, all of which tend to lead to the building of a great big tower of babble, and in the meantime, many people are suffering because of it, and it is surely even increasing human suffering, whereas deep enquiry results in insight into the true nature of what is happening and leads to mental clarity, and because of mental clarity much suffering for many people can be alleviated. So in some way having mental clarity equates with being just. In the actual world people who do not have complete mental clarity are trying to sort things out and being just in the best way they can. I have known and met quite a few criminals, and from their own perspective, as pointed out by Olive Oil, they think/feel they are being just---as do some prosecutors and jurists (and defense attorneys) who are committing horrible acts of injustice, but not according to themselves. Because they think feel what they are doing is right, they do not have an inner battle or struggle or questioning about what they are doing. It just FEELS right to them, and they will use any kind of fake logic to support it without even questioning their own inner motives and processes of logic.

Verdandi summed up this issue nicely.

Why would we have faith in a system that functions to criminalise the underclass,so that it can act as a slave population?

I don't even like the word, "criminal" because it carries so many negative connotations at a time when to become a criminal and be sent to prison, the system doesn't seem to care (if you're poor) whether you had options, or are even guilty of the crimes that you are accused of.

Last edited by Stannis on 22 Jan 2014, 9:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Our current justice system in the USA is about appeasing the public. In the past I've always thought that punishment was the way to go but recently I've been reading a lot of scientific evidence disproving free will. Without free will are we still responsible for our actions?

Or what about the day when we can quantifiably point to the difference in construction between the brain of a criminal and the brain of a law abiding citizen? Are we responsible for the way our brains are constructed?

I'm not saying one way or another. Just stuff to think about. I do think that people who cause pain and suffering to others need to be dealt with in some way.

Most people want what they are told they want. If large segments of the public want to be, "tough on crime." It's because some group that benefits from jailing people has paid some marketing firm to swindle the public into thinking they want that.

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." -- Edward Bernays (the founder of public relations)

"You have to understand the mindset of the criminal element and who you are dealing with. It's a way of thinking which you cannot change. Do I think that way? Yep. Do I act that way? Nope, cause I don't want to go to prison. If you were to get a random group of for real criminals and sit them down together, without some counselor or anything and have them talk about therapy or being taught better as a way to stop the crimes, they would laugh their asses off."

Yes, in order to properly rehabilitate someone, you'd have to understand their mind and why they do things. You also have to understand why some people don't do things. Just because you've never encountered or known someone to experience drastic shifts of mentality from prison therapy, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Seriously though, what you're saying is that you're a criminal and still participate in crimes but you're still claiming that the judicial system is keeping you on the straight and narrow. It's not though, it's only preventing SOME of your crimes.
Furthermore, YOU say that there's a criminal mindset that exists, you yourself see that there's something different in the mentality of a criminal than non-criminals.

Your mind isn't set in a specific way when you're born. Your personality isn't unchangeable. Your very identity can be stripped off and put back together given the right conditions.

I don't think that's entirely true. If someone takes my stuff I will feel motivated to take action against that person. Because this can lead to a lot of tit for tat, continued feuds and so on it is not in the best interest of society to allow me to take my own action. If no action is taken at all then I will not remain satisfied nor will others be satisfied that they are safe from the same crime. Therefor society takes enough action to satisfy the public as well as removing personal action that might create a tit for tat situation.

If we want less crime we should focus on education, rehabilitation, mental health support, government reform and the like.

If you moved time back 1 year, every atom and electron back in the exact same spot it was then and then started time back up. Would things happen exactly the same way they did before? I can find no reason that they wouldn't. And if that is the case then what we have done and what we will do are predetermined and who is responsible then? Besides, we can already prove to a great extent the differences in biology between someone who is capable of say murder and some who is not so for who's benefit is punishment? Putting them in jail will not change who they are. If we could simply strip off our identity I think you would find far fewer of us here on this website.

How can such an hypothesis be scientifically supported?



Without free will, is that scientific evidence meaningful or accurate?

I doubt that anyone thinks that every criminal can be rehabilitated. But a great many can be rehabilitated.

Like it or not, nearly everyone who goes to prison will be out again, sooner or later. The more of those who are released and were rehabilitated instead of made into gladiators, the better it is for the rest of us.

So you're equating a criminal mindset to that of autism? On what basis? Is criminal activity proven to be an unchangeable condition? Do you think autism will never have a cure?

The other argument about lack of free will and determinism isn't...useful. I mean, this whole conversation would then necessarily happen, and any conclusions someone would draw from it would necessarily happen, and everyone's individual perceptions of free will are destined to exist, and my perception of whether or not what I do matters in fact alters greatly what I will choose to do.
Which ultimately means that this discussion has a point because it might change perceptions. The act of communicating changes the outcome. What I do affects things. Maybe they're predetermined things, but that's irrelevant so it's therefore very relevant the choices someone makes.
Any movement, feminism, civil rights, etc. that creates a lasting change in culture is the result of people who try to make change. But if instead all of these people succumbed to self-fulfilling prophecies, 'I can't make a change, so I won't even try', those events would not have happened.

Cults, brainwashing, culture...they're all the same thing. They all change how someone perceives and interacts with the world. If we changed our culture such that criminal activity just didn't happen, would you do it?

People here who have committed crimes...what if you had never been around anyone else who was a criminal? Would you still have committed crimes? What if you were right now cut off from all criminals in your own life? Surely even that would affect future felonies of yours, even though it wouldn't completely get rid of them.

No, as usual, she summed up some kind of world that exists in her own mind and maybe the minds of a small group of people who hold one political position without any real world experience in the matters.

I hold no hardline views on tort reform or on capital gains taxes. Know why? I have no experience with them?

Ya'll want to hate on Autism Speaks for not listening to autistics but yet you can speak about s**t you know nothing about and it should be listened to too, huh?


Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

I'm confused. Are you disagreeing with things because you disagree with them, or because you are playing out a long running feud?

You might want to watch this. It was made in the mid 90s, but it covers the subject of the prison industrial complex pretty thoroughly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0SqRY9i5IE[/youtube]

Last edited by Stannis on 23 Jan 2014, 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

No, because I disagree with them. I just now thought of that whole Autism Speaks thing when I was writing this. How it's so ironic. So I posted it. I think it's a rather good comparison, but I'm sure she will disagree and post articles about why I'm so wrong.

The United States has the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world. And how has this fear of incarceration reduced our crime rate?

Also...

Some of the nicest, most giving, and caring individuals I have ever met, are, or until recently, were, criminals. They could have done some hard time.

I live in Colorado. MJ has been legal for the public, but medical MJ has been around for many years. My youngest son was issued the pink marijuana cards before there were even any dispensaries. He was [ I have heard both] either the second or the sixth minor in the state to receive it. It was a big [horrible]ordeal before he finally received it [social services, harrassment by the local cops, Kaiser Permanente refusing the meds for his ADHD, depression, and tourettes unless he passed a pee test before giving him his prescription as they reminded us that LJ was uninsureable.] The stuff saved my kids life. So, being the type of autistic who compulsively stands for things she believes in, became a mouthy activist [yes, my compulsion for fairness is even stronger than my fear of everything else]

Back then, just as dispensaries were only first popping up, most people bought their medicine through a caregiver. My son needed a very specific indica strain. Because of his neurology, not only did he need organic, but he needed medicine that was flushed 2 to 3 times more than most medical MJ is. This was a BIG deal. Why? Because spider mites can destroy a harvest in a matter of hours. Spider mites have more of an appetite for MJ ready to be harvested. The extra flushing is a gamble of putting your entire crop at risk. Expensive stuff. All of these people growing, though, took great care of my son, for free, because they cared.

Back then, Colorado had the loosest MMJ laws in the country. Now, they have the tightest. How did this happen? The dispensaries opened. Most of them only bought the very best medicine, so growers had to work their butts off to ensure the best product. Many of the growers were people whose lives had changed because of MMJ, and they wanted to share their miracle. Many growers mortgaged their homes and used their life savings to grow their businesses. Mom and pop shops opened everywhere. So did the ones owned by the russian mafia and other corporations.

It was the mafia and the corporations owning dispensaries that went to Governor Romer and demanded more regulation [so that they could put the little guys out of business] We fought,but virtually all the changes the mafia and corporations wanted were voted on and approved by our state reps.

One of the rules was that almost all of the mmj being sold at a dispensary had to be grown at that same dispensary. So, most of the growers, the ones who grew the superior product, either shut down or, worked illegally for another couple of years. Product quality went way down. MMJ that we were told would work for my son sometimes made him worse.

So, people, the criminals, lost their homes, their money, their careers, and their opportunity to be a sick persons miracle. Should they go to prison? Oh, and the russian mafia and other corporations [russian mafia incorporates also] the ones who pushed for law and order? Well, they are making money out the butt selling grossly inferior medicine.

Most of my criminal friends still grew for a while after the laws changed. Should they be in prison?

Also, I know a number of young women who spend time at an incredible day shelter for women and children called "The Gathering Place." I have heard so many of these womens stories. Many of them are prostitutes. The story of each of these women, how they reached such a tragic place [and I am not knocking prostitution. I am knocking the abuse of these young women] are each singularly unique and heartbreaking. These girls, these criminals, why put them in prison?

These are pretty much the only criminals I know. It adds up to quite a few. And they are all pretty darn incredible people. There is no reason for imprisoning any of them inside a monster factory.

...

Last edited by Verdandi on 24 Jan 2014, 3:47 am, edited 2 times in total.