Is there "good" without God?

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Kraichgauer
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22 Jan 2014, 5:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:

UndeadToaster wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

Good is what actions that will lead you in a possitive outcome not only for you but for those surrounding you bad is what would lead to a negative outcome for you and those around you for your actions. There is no magical man to tell you that, I mean its simple common sense not to go run around killing and raping people because its a rather messed up thing to do. But if a god existed and told you to stone your 4 year old son to death because he does not believe is a rightious and good thing or raping non believing women is a good thing then that is your definition of good. I dont need an invisible man to be a good citizen of society I just follow the laws and not willfully be an as*hole to everyone i meet. Simply treat those the way you want to be treated its as simple as that.

You just defined good. Good can exist in the sense that it can be defined, but that is your opinion (and I think the opinion of most humans) of good. Good, unless there is a god, is not a universal truth/concept/thing/whatever. God is necessary for a universal definition of good. Humans can define it for our own purposes, but in the grand scheme of the universe, our actions are not good or bad, they simply are. If there was a god ruling over this universe, then he/she/it could define good to be any set of actions/intents that he wants.

Even if God exists, Good is best known for it rarity among humans.

ruveyn

Holy crap! Are you certain you're not one of us German Lutherans?!?!?! :lol:

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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22 Jan 2014, 6:47 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

If you have to believe in a magical invisible man in the sky that has no proof of existence to be a good person you are weak minded and only use religion as an outlet for your behaviors. You dont have to believe in a god to be a good person if you think otherwise you lack logic, reasoning and are simple minded.[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGjziqe_Zak[/youtube]

Shes definately right about 4:45 :lol:

Yep he would look if she were naked crossing the street definitely lol despite what he says in the video. She's really cool and makes plenty of good points. I like her

AspieOtaku
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22 Jan 2014, 7:23 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

Shes definately right about 4:45 :lol:

Yep he would look if she were naked crossing the street definitely lol despite what he says in the video. She's really cool and makes plenty of good points. I like her

Shes cool and funny I wish more people are like this!

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wowiexist
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22 Jan 2014, 7:30 pm

I am a Christian, but I still said yes. There are good people and bad people in all walks of life. People could argue all day about what belief system or school of thoughts yields the highest percentage of good people. I don't really care if more Christians are good people than everyone else, although I wish that were true. Maybe one day we will just learn to all be nice to each other and the world will be a happier place.

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22 Jan 2014, 7:39 pm

[youtube]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8T_G4u1rAs[/youtube]

TheGoggles
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22 Jan 2014, 11:31 pm

I used to work in Christian television, so I've seen all of the "Way of the Master" episodes. Basically, the entire thing is nothing but Pascal's Wager over and over again. It wouldn't shock me even slightly if there's hundreds of hours worth of footage they erased to get what interviews they did. And to the best of my knowledge, they never actually converted anyone on the show. Most of the time they guy goes, "Yeah, cool, can we stop talking now?" and they cut to the next one.

RandyG
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22 Jan 2014, 11:55 pm

Morality is concerned with choices. I think that good or virtuous choices are those which promote, defend, and enhance human life; bad or vicious choices are those which impede or destroy human life. No deity required.

daar
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23 Jan 2014, 12:18 am

I am of the stance that if a monotheistic deity existed it would have to be neither good nor evil, as it would be beyond both. Good and evil are most soundly understood today as human constructs used as a measurement for the morality of an action.

In a dualistic religion like zoroastrianism good and evil can correctly be attributed to both deities. As Satan is not classified as a deity, this does not apply to Christianity or Islam.

So yes I think that good and evil are not exclusive to religion.

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23 Jan 2014, 12:29 am

TheGoggles wrote:

I don;t doubt Ray or Kirk's love for Jesus, but I do think their methods are completely wrong. They appear to use the same exact script with everyone, which doesn't work when you're dealing with folks who don't respect God or the Bible. They;d get far more positive results if they met each person where they were in life, instead of beating the Commandments into them like an assault.

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Kraichgauer
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23 Jan 2014, 2:34 am

TheGoggles wrote:

You worked in Christian TV? You have my sympathy! :lol:

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23 Jan 2014, 2:46 am

Morality is a human invention, as is the concept of "God", as far as I can tell. I could be wrong, but whatever the case is, morality seems like a pretty decent thing. It helps keep (most) people from killing each other over petty things, and whatnot.

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23 Jan 2014, 3:23 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

I can understand your argument, but it is unworkable. Which external standard should humanity use? Each religion has its own god or gods and its own set of moral principles that each religion believes is given by their own god.

The key to this is accepting absolute truth, which many don't want because it means their beliefs are wrong. Some would protest with "Who are you to judge?", and my answer is "I'm not. This has nothing to do with me; I'm just a messenger. Take your problems to the source; He can handle it."

There is no such thing as absolute truth, there are only approximate truths. The only way of knowing that something is true is by means of having demonstrable evidence for it and last time I checked, there was no demonstrable evidence that any Gods exist.

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

Quote:

Another argument against the external moral standards is how badly out of touch they are with modern society and how badly used/abused they are to inflict subjugation or even terror over other groups of mankind. The world is full of religious people who believe it is their moral duty to proselytize the unbelievers and even to kill them in the name of their external god given moral standard.

I've often said that the key to understanding different belief systems is looking at those who originally founded them, not the applications today. Just because different religious values are abused, that doesn't mean they should be discarded completely.

If you look at the bible, there are places where rape is condoned, where God commands the Israelites to commit genocide, slavery is acceptable etc. The very fact that we can choose out of the bible the morality that we like and discard the things that we dislike indicates that the bible cannot be our ultimate source of morality. It has to come from something else.

Kraichgauer
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23 Jan 2014, 3:32 am

I think in all fairness, the time and place where the Bible was written has to be taken into account, and that these were perceptions of people who knew the law, but little or nothing about grace yet.

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23 Jan 2014, 3:41 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think in all fairness, the time and place where the Bible was written has to be taken into account, .

Exactly. The mores of the bible are the social mores of the the time in which they were written and have nothing to with divine intervention. The stories which make up the bible are quite clearly man made, they extol the values of the time and were designed to keep people in their place, eg the keeping of slaves and the lawful killing of them, the subjugation of women, the murderous intent toward homosexuals etc.

As society has become more educated and matured so have the social mores and the morals and ethics used to govern society, although I often despair that this may be starting to slip.

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rokendearp
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23 Jan 2014, 3:53 am

I voted no, technically good cannot exist without God,

The word ..od is not getting us anywhere!

All the apologetic Christians , if your God told you to kill babies and you disobey you will rot in you hell. Deservedly so for being such half arsed believers.!

Stop bending Christianity to fit into what ever twisted mess of devotion you call belief!

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Kraichgauer
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23 Jan 2014, 4:00 am

rokendearp wrote:

To quote Martin Luther in regard to the Bible: "You have to take the shaft with the wheat." That is, not everything in the Bible is of equal worth. And so yes, you have to choose what's right and keeping with Christ's message of reciprocating God's love for us by loving one another. And killing babies is not conducive to Christ's message of grace.

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