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Janissy
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19 Mar 2014, 5:06 pm

Oxford Dictionary wrote:

Quote:
The avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.


It looks so exacting and concise but in practice "are perceived to exclude, marginalize or insult" is a giant umbrella. There are so very many topics under that umbrella and all worthy of individual attention. The topic of cultural appropriation explores whether exclusion, marginalization or insult had actually happened. Suddenly "PC" comes on the scene and it's like a giant zoom out lens so where we were once discussing the pros and cons of a particular building suddenly we are talking about which planet is the best and you are pro-Earth or anti-Earth.

It's not just this thread. It seems to be any discussion on or off the internet. Once "PC" is invoked, the original topic gets dropped forever and people just pick sides pro or anti PC.



LKL
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19 Mar 2014, 5:43 pm

The first thing I thought about when I read this was to wonder whether the author would classify martial arts as 'appropriation.'

I regularly dress up in a hakama and dogi, bow to a Shinto altar, and perform what I'm sure are fairly lousy American approximations of Japanese language and culture. My teachers are primarily white.
Does it make a difference that some of the teachers and fellow students are Japanese? Does it make a difference that the organization I train in is headquartered in Japan, and that we send dues back annually? Does it make a difference that the dojo I formerly trained at was unaffiliated, but that my Sensei was formally accredited to teach by his Shihan?

It's probably possible for belly dancing to be done in a way that is appropriating, just like it's possible for martial arts to be done in a way that is appropriating (or at least cheap and disrespectful, as when some shodan thinks he's qualified to teach and opens his own McDojo to compete with his own Sensei). There are similar issues with yoga, as well.

I think, as some of the responses to the original post said, that the important factors are 1)respect and 2)power differential. In the years after WW2, it would have been easier for Americans to 'appropriate' martial arts teachings, and there was some of that; however, teaching martial arts in Japan was a somewhat formalized practice already. Regardless of who bombed whom, Japanese teachers still required American students to submit to their authority; given that those who did ended up becoming better practitioners than the ones who tried to steal the teachings and run, it built up a hierarchy of reputation amongst those American students who went on to teach on their own. The better teachers and the better martial artists tended to be the ones who stuck to tradition rather than appropriating (this doesn't apply to where martial arts are treated as sport, as with some judo and jujitsu, but that's a whole other topic). Likewise with yoga. I don't know enough about belly dancing to know if this applies there as well.

I do know that the one belly dancing event I have been to was definitely done by women for women, as described in the OP; there were probably 20 - 30 women in the room, including about 5 dancers, and maybe 2 or 3 men - and the men who were there were clearly there to accompany spouses or girlfriends, and if anything looked a little nervous rather than turned on. The overall atmosphere was more 'I am woman, here me roar,' than 'I'm so sexy.'

A lot of times appropriation occurs when someone tangentially sees some element of another culture and then uses it for inspiration without having any clue what it actually means. It's far more difficult to accuse someone who studies for years with a master, who earns their status the same way someone of that master's same culture would, and who works to understand and appreciate the original culture, of appropriation than it is to accuse someone who sees an outfit they find 'cool' on the tv and decides to dress up that way.The whole 'OMG BLACK BELT' thing might be such and aspect with martial arts, or the 'yoga = weight loss' meme with yoga, or the 'belly dancing = eastern pole dancing' idea with the OP.

Lots of words.
TLDR: sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on the effort and the attitude.



Last edited by LKL on 19 Mar 2014, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kazma
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19 Mar 2014, 5:49 pm

Walrus your 3 category thing basically just looks like your saying if you don't agree 100% then your wrong :roll:

Janissy I think it happens as a lot of this stupidness stems from Imperfection in the PC and equality rights laws and so no mater the topic under that umbrella that's were the problems are



Janissy
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19 Mar 2014, 5:57 pm

LKL wrote:
The first thing I thought about when I read this was to wonder whether the author would classify martial arts as 'appropriation.'

I regularly dress up in a hakama and dogi, bow to a Shinto altar, and perform what I'm sure are fairly lousy American approximations of Japanese language and culture. My teachers are primarily white.
Does it make a difference that some of the teachers and fellow students are Japanese? Does it make a difference that the organization I train in is headquartered in Japan, and that we send dues back annually? Does it make a difference that the dojo I formerly trained at was unaffiliated, but that my Sensei was formally accredited to teach by his Shihan?

.


Given this quote from her article, I'd have to say the answer to your opening question is "yes", she would classify your martial arts class as appropriation. And "no" to all your followup questions, none of those things would make a difference.
(from the article)
Quote:
When I have argued, online and in person, with white women belly dancers, they have assured me that they learned to dance from Arab women and brown women. This is supposed to make the transaction OK. Instead, I point out that all this means is that it is perfectly all right with these teachers that their financial well-being is based on self-exploitation.


It's not a total parallel with your teachers since they aren't Japanese but have this official affiliation. That probably would make it even more heinous.



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19 Mar 2014, 7:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:
This Randa Jarar is a neurotic . Would she complain of Arab women learning classical ballet?

ruveyn


Based on my subsequent reading on the topic, no, because white people are Teh Powerful Exploiterers and thus cannot have anything appropriated from them and they probably deserve it when brown people steal their dance forms, children and souls.


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19 Mar 2014, 7:39 pm

I agree with her!

I will step up and totally defend her!

We should forbid all American women from studying belly dancing-immediately- because it exploits Arab culture!

Furthermore:

All American public schools should IMMEDIATELY stop the teaching of algebra!

Algebra was also appropriated from Arab culture, and is just as much an example of our shameless exploitation of Arab culture as is belly dancing!

Give algebra back to the Arabs I say!

And why stop there?

We should go back to using Roman numerals NOW!

We have NO RIGHT to use 0,1,2,3,...9! There is a REASON that they're called "Arabic numbers".

Oh...and "gum arabic"..
I'm sorry... Im starting to loose it.

Its just that...I can't LIVE with myself knowing that we have stolen decimal numbers, algebra, and belly dancing, from the Arabs! It just gets me SO upset that I can't sleep at night!



kazma
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19 Mar 2014, 8:18 pm

Who_Am_I
Sadly What you said about white people being Teh Powerful Exploiterers is acceptable here's a fine example of this [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M&app=desktop[/youtube]



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19 Mar 2014, 9:00 pm

Janissy wrote:
LKL wrote:
The first thing I thought about when I read this was to wonder whether the author would classify martial arts as 'appropriation.'

I regularly dress up in a hakama and dogi, bow to a Shinto altar, and perform what I'm sure are fairly lousy American approximations of Japanese language and culture. My teachers are primarily white.
Does it make a difference that some of the teachers and fellow students are Japanese? Does it make a difference that the organization I train in is headquartered in Japan, and that we send dues back annually? Does it make a difference that the dojo I formerly trained at was unaffiliated, but that my Sensei was formally accredited to teach by his Shihan?

.


Given this quote from her article, I'd have to say the answer to your opening question is "yes", she would classify your martial arts class as appropriation. And "no" to all your followup questions, none of those things would make a difference.
(from the article)
Quote:
When I have argued, online and in person, with white women belly dancers, they have assured me that they learned to dance from Arab women and brown women. This is supposed to make the transaction OK. Instead, I point out that all this means is that it is perfectly all right with these teachers that their financial well-being is based on self-exploitation.


It's not a total parallel with your teachers since they aren't Japanese but have this official affiliation. That probably would make it even more heinous.

Yeah, I think you're right that she would think that. The fact that the Japanese people don't seem to think that - they are, for the most part, amused by Americans acting Japanese, and proud of their martial legacy - probably wouldn't make a difference to her.



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19 Mar 2014, 11:11 pm

Hopper wrote:
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made up feminist words,


How's that?


"Whitesplain"? Just to point out the most obvious example.


Hopper wrote:
Quote:
and racism in progressive drag?


How's that?


Uh, the whole "people aren't allowed to dance a certain way unless they belong to the 'right' race" thing? Tarted up in the usual progressive language of appropriation and white privilege, of course, but still good old fashioned racism underneath.


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19 Mar 2014, 11:15 pm

Hopper wrote:
Stewart Lee, responding to a studio audience poll as to whether Political Correctness has 'gone mad', wrote:
It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say "political correctness gone mad" are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with. I'm of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, "if you want a n****r for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the n****rs and the coons and the jungle bunnies live." And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the black spot in," right?

And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I'm sick, I'm really sick-- 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you're like those people who turn around and go, "you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots.

(From "Heresy", BBC Radio 4, 16th May 2007)


So, according to this guy, PC does an adequate job of sweeping uncomfortable statements under the rug? While making an unsupportable derogatory generalization about a large group of people, the kind of statement that could be sanctioned if political correctness were given the force of law?


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19 Mar 2014, 11:18 pm

I think the author's position is absolutely ridiculous.
That said, I always think its weird how many white couples want to have Indian-themed weddings. Not that it's wrong or offensive, it's just weird to me. If neither person is Indian, what's the point? Isn't your wedding supposed to reflect who YOU are? Why would you want to dress up in a sari and ride on an elephant when you are a white Baptist from North Carolina? It seems like the wedding is being treated as a Halloween party in those instances.



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19 Mar 2014, 11:20 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Three possibilities on the general "political correctness" issue, as I see it:

1) You are fine and dandy with political correctness
2) You are outright opposed to political correctness
3) You like the idea of political correctness, but think it sometimes goes a bit far.

If 1) applies, great.

If 2) applies, you probably don't really know what political correctness is

If 3) applies, consider this. Your ancestors probably had no issue throwing around the most offensive of racial slurs, and thought black people were below them. Your great-grandparents probably wanted homosexuality to remain illegal. You probably cringe at some of the things your parents and grandparents say. What makes you so sure that future generations won't cringe at some of the genuine views you hold?


This strikes me as a bit simplistic, not to mention condescending.


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20 Mar 2014, 2:01 am

Is there even a conflict here? Nobody seems to agree with the article...



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20 Mar 2014, 9:31 am

Janissy wrote:
Although insensitive, I don't think those are examples where the originators were excluded. First Nations peoples can still use their motifs and Muslims can still pray on prayer rugs. A person using a prayer rug as a decoration is insensitive but it doesn't take it away from the Muslim in the way the swastika was so thoroughly taken away.


This is so--but that's why I said that these practices should give the user pause. One person using a prayer mat as a throw rug doesn't do a great deal of harm. But harm can be cumulative. When it shows up in Architectural Digest or Better Homes and Gardens and suddenly buyers are stripping bazaars clean in order to resell in Western shops, that's a little different.

Furthermore, there is the very real issue of putting sacred objects or practices to mundane use. It is a lamentable practice.


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20 Mar 2014, 9:44 am

What is sacred to one person is common to another. Why should we not eat beef, because some consider cows to be sacred?



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20 Mar 2014, 10:37 am

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cul ... =policymic


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