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The rise of Fascism in Europe

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GoonSquad
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17 Jan 2015, 8:51 am

trollcatman wrote:

I disagree: the populist right was already popular in many EU countries waaaay before the economic crisis. The anti-immigration, anti-Muslim, anti-EU topics somehow go together in these parties.



Okay... I don't dispute your point. HOWEVER, I think that during tough economic times more people, especially working class, lower educated people, become more politically involved. I also think this angry, right-wing fascist message tents to appeal to these people. So, as a result, fascism becomes a much more powerful/influential force...

Just look at the Hitler's brown shirts or Mussolini's black shirts. Both were made up of economically displaced/disgruntled WWI vets. Without the economic hardship of the great depression, I think many of these guys would have been too busy with life (working and raising a family) to get involved with extreme politics.

With reference to disgruntled/economically displaced vets and radical politics, the same thing almost happened in the US of the 1930s. There was a group known as the bonus army. They were WWI vets who needed money and wanted the US government to pay them a promised bonus for service during the war early. The government refused. So, the bonus army 'occupied' Washington (camped out in a shantytown) until Douglas McArthur and the real army forcibly evicted them...

A group of business men opposed to FDR's radical reforms tried to recruit a guy named Smedly Butler (former commandant of the USMC turned political speaker/activist) to lead the bonus army in a coup to displace FDR. This is known as the Business Plot.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot.


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18 Jan 2015, 12:48 am

white_as_snow wrote:
In many Europe countries, fascist political partys is growing very fast.

Why is that? Good or bad? Will this happen in USA and Canada also?

Is being a facist really the same thing as being a nazi racist?

In my country, Sweden, Sverigedemokraterna got 12,9 % of the votes in 2014 election. New statistics researchers are showing that if a election was held today, they would get 18 %.

The lefts and liberals are all over the facists in Europe, attacking them with words and telling them how bad they are etc.



It is BAD. Time for a communist revival from the East!



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18 Jan 2015, 12:50 am

GoonSquad wrote:
trollcatman wrote:

I disagree: the populist right was already popular in many EU countries waaaay before the economic crisis. The anti-immigration, anti-Muslim, anti-EU topics somehow go together in these parties.



Okay... I don't dispute your point. HOWEVER, I think that during tough economic times more people, especially working class, lower educated people, become more politically involved. I also think this angry, right-wing fascist message tents to appeal to these people. So, as a result, fascism becomes a much more powerful/influential force...

Just look at the Hitler's brown shirts or Mussolini's black shirts. Both were made up of economically displaced/disgruntled WWI vets. Without the economic hardship of the great depression, I think many of these guys would have been too busy with life (working and raising a family) to get involved with extreme politics.

With reference to disgruntled/economically displaced vets and radical politics, the same thing almost happened in the US of the 1930s. There was a group known as the bonus army. They were WWI vets who needed money and wanted the US government to pay them a promised bonus for service during the war early. The government refused. So, the bonus army 'occupied' Washington (camped out in a shantytown) until Douglas McArthur and the real army forcibly evicted them...

A group of business men opposed to FDR's radical reforms tried to recruit a guy named Smedly Butler (former commandant of the USMC turned political speaker/activist) to lead the bonus army in a coup to displace FDR. This is known as the Business Plot.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot.


The objective of fascism historically was to wipe out the middle class. In Germany, Jews comprised the middle class in the early 20th century so Hitler's message appealed not only to working class Germans, but to wealthy industrialists and landed gentry.



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20 Jan 2015, 5:17 pm

Humanaut wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
slenkar wrote:
It's a reaction to massive muslim immigration.
That doesn't explain the massive anti-Semitic epidemic in Greece right now.

That's mainly a left-wing phenomenon.



No, it isn't. Last I checked, parties such as Golden Dawn and Front National who are the most anti semitic are also the farthest right.


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thomas81
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20 Jan 2015, 5:20 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
One, it's not racism. Racism would imply Islam is a race, when it is a religion

.


One issue here is when 'Islam' becomes, and has become a catch all word for 'the brown people'. The fact that muslims aren't protected from religious hate speech to the same extent that say for example, Jews are, has been exploited to the hilt by right wing parties such as the BNP and other fascist parties across Europe.


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20 Jan 2015, 5:26 pm

Humanaut wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
You can't blame the Europeans for Islamic fanatics fighting each other.

Fidel Castro says John McCain and the Jews created ISIS.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/former-cuba-leader-fidel-castro-says-israel-us-144839682.html


No, he said that the USA and Israel created ISIS. If you're going to link an article, it helps if you can at least quote it correctly. Not all Jews believe in nationalist Judaism. What are you, some kind of anti-semite?


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20 Jan 2015, 7:09 pm

thomas81 wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
One, it's not racism. Racism would imply Islam is a race, when it is a religion

.


One issue here is when 'Islam' becomes, and has become a catch all word for 'the brown people'. The fact that muslims aren't protected from religious hate speech to the same extent that say for example, Jews are, has been exploited to the hilt by right wing parties such as the BNP and other fascist parties across Europe.


Ja, I have seen Muslims attack the West for banning Holocaust denialism, but not blasphemy against the Islamic religion. They consider that to be hypocritical of the West.

Of course, they often forget that the U.S. doesn't fall under this because no one in the U.S. has the authority to ban either Holocaust denialism or blasphemy against the Islamic religion, because of the 1st Amendment (q.v.).


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20 Jan 2015, 8:23 pm

beneficii wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
One, it's not racism. Racism would imply Islam is a race, when it is a religion

.


One issue here is when 'Islam' becomes, and has become a catch all word for 'the brown people'. The fact that muslims aren't protected from religious hate speech to the same extent that say for example, Jews are, has been exploited to the hilt by right wing parties such as the BNP and other fascist parties across Europe.


Ja, I have seen Muslims attack the West for banning Holocaust denialism, but not blasphemy against the Islamic religion. They consider that to be hypocritical of the West.

Of course, they often forget that the U.S. doesn't fall under this because no one in the U.S. has the authority to ban either Holocaust denialism or blasphemy against the Islamic religion, because of the 1st Amendment (q.v.).


What i meant is that right wing parties are able to channel into the ignorance of the general public. The general voter isn't that discerning between muslim and non muslim immigration (nor often is likely to care). The feeling of general alienation at the perception of 'becoming foreign in ones own land' rightly or wrongly by being in close proximity with other races is exploited by demagogues that feed on the kind of frenzy fuelled by the Charlie Hesbo circus.


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21 Jan 2015, 5:50 am

thomas81 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
slenkar wrote:
It's a reaction to massive muslim immigration.
That doesn't explain the massive anti-Semitic epidemic in Greece right now.
That's mainly a left-wing phenomenon.
No, it isn't. Last I checked, parties such as Golden Dawn and Front National who are the most anti semitic are also the farthest right.
Leftists are not the only ones characterized by anti-Semitic attitudes. Nazis and Muslims are, to varying degrees, also sharing the same sentiment, but the left is arguably the largest anti-Semitic faction in Greece.



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21 Jan 2015, 10:59 am

Of note, what are we talking about when we say "fascism" here?



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21 Jan 2015, 1:11 pm

/\ To some, anything right of wherever they are on the left is facist.

As for fascism in Europe, if it exists there it's only because the current socio-political climate is right for it.


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21 Jan 2015, 1:45 pm

I think it's entirely wrong to class "anti-immigration" itself as fascism, as that's only the possible consequence of nationalism; as far as I can tell, the people that are for that aren't for conquest of their neighbors, rather the lawful removal of people they see as causing undue civil disturbance. Fascists can use this social disturbance to aid in extreme nationalism, but it's going to be for a far more nefarious reason (i.e., killing the undesirable people and garnering military support, whereas most people will tend to just want them gone from their country who're anti-immigration).



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22 Jan 2015, 12:20 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Leftists are not the only ones characterized by anti-Semitic attitudes. Nazis and Muslims are, to varying degrees, also sharing the same sentiment, but the left is arguably the largest anti-Semitic faction in Greece.

I would like to see this accusation qualified with a source.


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thomas81
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22 Jan 2015, 12:29 pm

Raptor wrote:
/\ To some, anything right of wherever they are on the left is facist.

As for fascism in Europe, if it exists there it's only because the current socio-political climate is right for it.


I wouldnt get too cocky. America is also on a slippery slope towards the same circumstances.

Europe is only different because we have a historical precedence of fascism.


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22 Jan 2015, 4:23 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm a great fan of America and the Allies:

But I believe the rise of Hitlerism was pretty directly caused by the Reparations forced upon the Central Powers (Germany, Austria, and others) by the Allies via the Versailles Treaty.

Hyperinflation in Germany was one of the paramount causes of the rise of the Nazis.


Happy New Year, Kraftie!

I have to disagree--the Germans already had all the elements of Nazi racial theory well developed before the first world war, so reparations cannot be the primary cause. Reparations and hyperinflation helped destabilize the elements in German society that might have controlled the extreme right, but the core of that thought was home grown from deep roots.


That bit in bold is the important part. Extreme politics always does better in hard times. People wouldn't be so angry and looking for scapegoats if they were busy making and spending money.

The current anti-immigration movement in the US is largely fueled by bad economics. Nobody gave a damn about those issues when the economy was booming.

Stop EU austerity and you'll take the wind out of fascism's sails.


I keep hearing this observation as if it is supposed to be some sort of critique of fascism. But to me the fact that the liberal-democracies keep experiencing these economic crises, and that the liberal democratic propaganda machine (which lectures the masses from birth about the "dangers of fascism") still can't prevent people from periodically supporting so-called "fascist" parties, seems to be more of an embarrassment for liberal democracy.

If the EU elites could simply improve Europe's economy without abandoning their main objective (the dissolution of Europe's national identities and the miscegenation of their populations) no doubt they would, at least to keep the masses quiet.

As for "extreme politics" - it's really quite amazing how liberal democratic governments can start any number of pointless, destructive wars against foreign countries, but to the average person it's only the people who merely want to keep foreigners out of their country who deserve the label "extreme".



Last edited by Rollo on 22 Jan 2015, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Jan 2015, 4:24 pm

Dillogic wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
I have no ill will towards the majority of Muslims, but when they are calling for what is taught in the Koran and oppressing women and minorities, then there is a major issue.

A portion of Muslims fail to understand the separation of church and state.
If they want Sharia, there's plenty of countries that have it.


Yes, there are plenty of countries that have Sharia, but Islam is expansionist, so those Muslims who move to non-Muslim lands and say they want Sharia law are not being as irrational as you seem to imply. Really, it is Westerners who act surprised at the sight of Muslims doing what their religion tells them who are being irrational - what caused them to become so confused is another matter.