Why do people fear that free will might not exist?

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some humans, not all, not by a longshot. some people are not amenable to reason.

I have never been able to understand the concept of free will. What is the will supposed to be free from?
I have never seen a definition of free will that was comprehensible to me.

Maybe people should read more Schopenhauer...

Obviously there is no absolute human free will,
as 'we' do not have total conscious verbal, emotional,
and other sensory ways of controlling autonomic function; however, there most definitely is relative human free will, where a person can innately, instinctually, and intuitively seek, find, employ, utilize, develop and practice greater ways of imaginative and creative natural physical intelligence to greater regulate emotions, integrate senses; and increase cognitive executive functioning by way of focus and short term working memory.

There is not a fixed ability for any one, or more than one humans, as a group, to exercise this potential in real flesh and blood life; there is a whole spectrum of potential, and actual abilities that humans can achieve to reach higher levels of relative free will AKA as the Higher Power of GOD, in some cultural and or religious circles.

Never the LESS, IT IS REAL, AND IT IS the emoting EMOTIONAL FORCE, OF RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL.

IN EXERCISING THIS MUCH GREATER HUMAN POTENTIAL, I have no problem regulating my emotions, integrating my senses, to a level of ONENESS WITH THE REST OF NATURE AKA GOD; WHERE EVERY NOW IS BLISS.

Direct empirically measured benefits for me are leg pressing 930 LBS slowly and surely 14 times, with my hands raised in the air on a parallel leg press machine that is much more difficult than a vertical leg press machine; dancing in the snow in 20 degree or so weather, scantily clad and barefoot; dance walking a style of martial arts and ballet style dance now over 3400 miles everywhere I go, in the general public, over the course of 20 months, now.

AND NAH, FOR A PERSON WHO CANNOT DEFEAT THE INNER DEMONS OF STRESS; FEAR, DOUBT, HATE AND ALL THE OTHER CON-SOCIAL HUMAN EMOTIONS THAT CAN BE THE DEATH STAR OF THE HUMAN HEART/SOUL EXPRESSED AS SPIRIT OF EMOTIONS AND SENSES; relative free will is weak, as in the force in 'STAR WARS' FOR WHAT THE FORCE FRIGGING IS, TO BEGIN WITH.

IN METAphor, the FORCE IS Human Relative FREE WILL, and IT IS a directing FORCE of emotions and senses that makes
life incredibly cool, when just one now, lasts forever in bliss; compared to a life where relative human free can be 'wimpy' even in 6 foot 6 muscular dudes, who have little RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL control over mind and body balance.

Truly, most human suffering is a result of a life of chronic stress where external factors control the human mind and
body, often out of balance.

There is little free associated with being a slave to culture, in metaphor.

Western Cultures, overall, do not value relative human free will.

This much greater human potential is sacrificed for a life spent in one's head,
out of mind and body balance,
and in illusory future dreams of gaining material items,
and selfish power, for many folks.

There is no doubt at all that there are many folks speaking in this general
forum and almost everywhere one looks in a world where tools of humankind
have become the relative virtual reality, and human being as evolved is rarely in
the kind of balance in mind and body that is definitely required to survive as a flesh
and blood human being, through the long primate history that humans are just a relatively
tiny part of, in differentiation. And truly most animals have more free will than humans as truly
it is abstract complex written language, culture, and religion that can block the potential in life of

DEVELOPING RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL.

There is nothing IN life that is totally FREE.

Relative human FREE WILL developed,

as a higher human potential requires

continual hard work in blood, sweat,

and potentially

tears of eyes,

and flesh

and blood

too...

QFT

Thankfully, there are two ways to easily prove free will. One happens to be a thought experiment proposed by Aristotle, though not used in the manner at the time. Essentially, the story goes that Aristotle was conversing with an individual that insisted that parts of the Universe if not all of the Universe did not exist and were essentially universal figments of imagination. The argument turned to the table they were eating at. Aristotle pointed out that he could feel the table. To which the man said you imagine feeling it. This went on for a plethora of senses beyond the simple five ignorantly taught in schools. However, no sense could prove the table existed. As the man got up and left the room Aristotle noticed the man set his glass back down on to the table. He then realized that no matter how much the man denies the existence of the table he will still act and behave as if the table exists. (In other words subconsciously he still believes that the table exists despite his outward preferences) The Same can be said of those who deny the existence of free will. They may post or say that they do not believe in free will. But after they leave they will still behave and think as if they had free will. Thinking perhaps that they could have CHOSE a different cereal in the morning. (thought the first act of many peoples day (breakfast) was a fitting point to make since if you have not been a wake a hour and still behave as if you have free will then you will statistically continue to do so throughout the day)

The second way is a little more complicated, a lot more thorough, and happens to be one of my own personal creation. Instead of trying to prove it with logic I decided to prove it using mathematics and science. Ill have to go through my own journals to find the proof that was written. Since i am without my note book i am going to summarize from here as well as i can. Essentially, it relies on a couple laws. First, the Second Law of Thermo-dynamics ( i know and most of us thinkers had concluded that the second law was the bane of our existence) essentially for those of you unfamiliar with the law it states that as time increases so will entropy. In other words the entropy of the Universe can only and will only increase never decrease.

The second law that One must familiarize themselves with to understand the proof is the laws of binary compression and what they mean. You see, a video with maximum compressed information would actually look like the static black and white snow that you see on television sets. The way compression works is by removing redundancy or predictability. This can be further looked into by researching information theory.

A few givens have to be made first pure information as stated above is information with the most entropy.

Quantum mechanics is real. (I seriously hope no one argues against this (it would be a little disturbing) but a given is a given) (also that's the correct use of the word is)

the human brain is a systemic system that can be affected on the quantum level. (pretty easily proven)

Now lets talk about quantum mechanics. The important thing to take away from quantum mechanics (i do not feel like explaining it) is that things are measured in probabilities not in actual constants (well most of the time there are constants used for it such as the planck constant). The notable part of this is that experiments show that the measuring of particles determines its state.


Now all of this goes to prove that our free will is derived from the measuring of particles on the quantum level by our brains.

Post Scriptum

Now to go find the notebook this is in.

Post Post Scriptum

Sorry if that was a little long winded. I tried to be as concise as possible speaking of concise (why am I still typ....)

let us just say that free will is a variably comforting belief for some, a dogma to be defended to the death for others.

Smiles.. and thanks..

With all respect I will direct you to the rules of the internet. Rules: 39, and 40 (Meme)
39. CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
40. EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL YOU STILL HAVE TO STEER.

I really do not mean any offence I found what you said enjoyable and interesting. I just found it incredibly hard to read.

Thank you.

I am familiar with the before mentioned rules.

A symptom of relative human free will,

IS NOT playing by the rules of others.

I am neither guided or controlled by
the norm of cultural rules as is;

with due respect too;

and smiles..

But of course, when

I function as a technical writer

in one of my many hats in government

service, I dot every single i and crossed every t,

As IT were; but NOW, !i simply play life however I like..

The fact that quantum mechanics may be involved in brain function does NOT prove the existence of free will! Quantum mechanics is also involved in semiconductor physics, and of course semiconductors are vital components of modern computers. Nondeterministic processes at the quantum level exploit certain specific quantum phenomenon like the uncertainty principle for example.

But I'm not convinced you thoroughly understand quantum physics because your argument that it implies free will is a non-sequitur. When quantum mechanical systems are subjected to constraints, like particles in bound states where they are under the influence of an energy potential field, the number of possible energy states is not only reduced but becomes mathematically predictable. Quantum white noise in brain signals with a large enough power spectrum make it impossible to correctly perceive reality and to think clearly let alone make decisions based on logic we are aware of. Because if you introduce white noise into computer signals you will get excessive computational error.

For our "quantum brains" to measure particles and derive free will from it what is your evidence that quantum measurements are the basis of conscious decision making? To measure a particle and generate a random signal from it requires that the positional uncertainty of the particle be smaller than its wavelength(which is derived from its energy state). SHOW me how this works!


And finally, regarding the first paragraph, the belief in free will even by those who claim that they don't also isn't enough to prove that it exists. Because the advent of neuroscience means that free will is no longer a philosophical question but a scientific question. Perception is not always reality. The evidence for this is the phenomenon of optical illusions. When certain patterns of light fall upon the retinas, the brain is "tricked" into seeing something which is not actually there as other observers nearby can neither see it nor touch it. Free will may turn out to be a psychological delusion where our minds are playing a trick on us.

The most amazing thing about 'human awakening and enlightenment'
IS IT is an escape from mechanical cognition and IT IS True Will at core.

THE MECHANICAL COGNITION MIND IS ONLY A TIP OF THE ICEBERG OF
THE EXPERIENCE OF HUMAN; AND THE SYSTEMIZING MIND OF SCIENCE
IS EXTREMELY LIMITED IN THIS WAY.

True will is an innate instinctual all intuitive part of human nature.

It comes from the emotional and sensory mind

as 'Quantum Human Mind and body in balance

UNLEASHED'.

NOW, TO BE CRYSTAL clear, the quote
marks tHErE mean METAPHOR ALERT!

MECHANICAL COGNITION

IS THE ILLUSION.

HUMAN EMOTIONS AND SENSES

THAT EMOTE ACTION ARE REAL.

THERE IS NO free will with a mind spent

IN SYSTEMIZING WAYS OF Mechanical Cognition

that are simply 'parrots' of what has come before.

And Honestly, for a mind spent in ways of mechanical cognition,

It is next to fING impossible to understand WTF i am speaking of here,

FTW.

Here's
the thing,
the 'Quantum
Mind Unleashed'
IS the ingredients of
TRUE HUMAN GENIUS
IN CREATING SOMETHING,
ANYTHING, NEW, for NOW
WITH 'RIGHT BRAIN' AND
'LEFT BRAIN' BALANCE
IN SYNCHRONY

WITH THE ENTIRE Human Body that some
Eastern Philosophies attempt to systemize
with so-called silly limited '7 Chakras',
conjured up with sitting still Mantras,
which is only a small metaphor
of MOVING human potential,
as WELL.

The human
mind
does not
JUST EXIST
IN ONE'S HEAD;
IT IS DISTRIBUTED
ALL OVER THE BODY
IN RECEPTIVE WAYS OF
NEURO-CHEMICAL/
NEURO-HORMONE
HEALING OR DISTRESS,
WHEN
one
IS FRIGGING STUCK
IN 'MECHANICAL
COGNITION HEAD
WAYS OF THINKING
ALONE'.

CREATIVE
Artistic Geniuses;
TRUE GENIUSES;
HAVE GOT IT ALL
TOGETHER,
IN THE 'QUANTUM
HUMAN MIND AND BODY
BALANCED UNLEASHED',
WHICH TRULY
IS 'just'
another
metaphor

FOR Human Free Will,
relatively speaking of course,
through 'words of Einstein' too.

There is no genius
in science minds imprisoned
in a zoo of systemizing
ways of thinking;

WITHOUT a Quantum Mind and body
in balance unleashed,
THROUGH GREATER HUMAN IMAGINATIVE
CREATIVE PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE EXERCISED
TO REGULATE EMOTIONS, INTEGRATE SENSES, ENHANCE
COGNITIVE EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONING THROUGH INCREASING
FOCUS AND SHORT TERM WORKING MEMORY;

'1984' is here already, and for all practical intents and purposes,

the 'Zombie Apocalypse and or Tsunami' has already washed

human relative free will, away in life, of many human beings.

I see it everywhere I go, 'JUST' LIKE 'NEO', LESS AND more..

BUT AT least, in my case I enjoy relative human free will

all the time now, in the bliss of the heaven of now,

as I for one have THAT KIND OF CONTROL

OVER MY LIFE, AT LEAST;

NO MATTER WHAT
KIND OF ILLUSION
FOLKS 'THINK'
THEY ARE IN,
IN A EMPTY
LIFE
OF FEELING
NOT MUCH
OF ANYTHING
@ALL, AKA GOD.

It is likely that one day some 'scientist(S)' are going
to say 'they' prove that human free will does not exist;
and in that case, will be 'their' own foolish, self fulfilling
prophecy come true, by spending 'their' life in an illusory
head way of mechanical cognition thinking, and never truly
living at all, as human being is evolved to live, as is for NOW.

First in all respect, though you have good points, I see no reason I should regard you as an expert on this subject (I say this in response to your ad hominem attack on my own knowledge). First, it is important to note that any claims on our either of our own credentials are essentially mute. We are after all on an Internet forum. Where it is nigh impossible to prove ones identity (thought I would get that out of the way in case you come back and say your a professor or something). Second, Of your 287 posts I was only able to find one on the Computers, math, science, and technology board. Now this by itself proves little. However, it is non the less important to not.

Now to actually respond to your arguments, and point out the flaws. In your first paragraph you say that The fact that quantum mechanics may be involved (may is a little weak it is almost guaranteed to be involved) does not prove free will. Further backing this claim up by your point that it is involved in semi-conductors and quantum computing.

For this I will direct you to the aforementioned single post you happened to have (at the time of me writing) in the Computers, math, science, and technology boards. You clearly state that Artificial intelligence will not be possible until function quantum computers are created. Now if an artificial intelligence is sentient our aware of its surroundings in a way that allows it to make choices based on this awareness then your argument is non-sequitur.

Now let's move on. Seeing as I don't have all day to deal with a difference of opinions I will direct you to Quantum entanglement as an answer to your first statement in pgh 2 (also mathematically predictable does not mean it results in an absolute certain value but I digress). In regards to quantum white noise I will point out that the brain and a computer are two Very different things one of them we understand quite well having created it the other we are far from understanding. You simply can not equate the two. Also, out of curiosity I would like a source on that quantum white noise causing irrational behavior. (I would like to see the research and study before I respond since the one thing I have learned from life is the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn). http://www.informationphilosopher.com/f ... noise.html is some of what a Google search turned up and it appears to support my position. Also that article could in part answer your challenge to me since I do not feel like personally "showing you how this works" (ignoring the feasibility of such a thing in the confines of the boards we are in.

The first paragraph really just went to show that there is no point in continued discussion on the topic since even if you were to some how prove that we have no free will it would have no logical purpose because we would simply go on behaving as if we did.

I do not claim to be an expert on quantum mechanics, though I do no something about it.

Quantum entanglement is a good example of how determinism arises from true randomness. Entanglement is when you have a system of quanta whose states are interdependent. That is, each quantum's states are not independent of the other quanta involved. Specifically it involves quantum decoherence(AKA wave function collapse)where a superposition of energy states collapses into a single state. Now quantum mechanics obeys time reversal symmetry, whereas classical physics on the scale we can observe with our senses, particularly thermodynamic processes that involve an increase in entropy, do not obey time reversal symmetry.

What I'm asking for is some evidence from EXPERIMENTAL physics and neurophysiology that quantum decoherence can actually play a role in brain function and allow for the possibility of free will. There still is insufficient solid evidence that quantum physics plays any kind of macroscopic role in brain function. Macroscopic quantum coherence, or superposition of states, has been demonstrated experimentally with superconductors and superfluids(like liquid Helium-3). Ditto for macroscopic quantum entanglement which has been demonstrated with Bose-Einstein condensates which require extremely low temperatures < 5 Kelvins. The thing about quantum decoherence in particular is that it in many cases it is thermodynamically irreversible and *can* indeed be deterministic after all. So what you would need for true non-determinism and actual free will is thermodynamically reversible decoherence in the human brain.

Keep in mind that quantum mechanics is a *model* of reality on a very small scale(from the molecular scale on downwards). Many people think that it actually is reality despite the fact that the quantum model does not describe the behavior of matter and energy on the "classical" level and it is entirely inconsistent with general relativity.

Well now if we're talking experimental physics that does change things drastically (personally I much prefer to stay in the realm of theory and equations:)). Oh, and up front I apologize for the short response ahead of time (For whatever reason I find it hard to focus this morning) I do quite enjoy talking to you. The first experimental component I will direct you you to I recently found in preparation for our talks admittedly it is a video that sides with me. So if you do not want to watch the video the part that matters is from 8:42 to then end of the demonstration. The video is what is not random? By veritasium. The part I'm directing you to is a set 3 physical systems that demonstrate chaos theory set off at the same time in the same(not perfectly the same but essentially the same) way. The second thing I will direct you to is a little bit of both http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 1309#sec-5 if you want to skip the fluff (which I do not recommend because the whole thing is interesting) look to part 5. Now admittedly I do not agree with everything in the paper.... (On some "facts" but I rarely agree with anyone one hundred percent on the facts actually I think that is a phenomenon yet to occur ) the part to look to explains a possible correlation. However, I think and I do not know this for certain, but I think the possible disconnect we experience is based on how we like to view things. Do you prefer experimental physics or theoretical if you don't mind me asking? Anyway, my system if you want a point to attack is based on the concept of the particle superimposition being done by the brain itself. When my grammar goes you can tell, I am having a hard time thinking (I've been a little ill the past three weeks (3 emergency room visits and I'm quite tired, I think I'll remove myself from our conversation for a bit after this post... I'll be back though I just need to do something that uses less of my brains resources for a bit)). Yeah, that entire thing above is a grammatical train wreck....

Honestly, PERHAPS the saddest thing of all, IN REAL LIFE,

is folks who come to believe they have no control over theIR life,

as random globs of 'crap' from the Universe, as is.

Trust me, if you ever become a shut-in with 19 documented disorders, and cannot raise your arms over your head without almost passing out, for five long years; additionally, with the worst documented pain known to mankind that is like someone drilling your teeth without novocaine, except it is in your eye and ear, and find the free will inside to cure all of that; and to do what other folks 'in the know', describe as amazing accomplishments of actual physical feats that so-called science say are not possible for a disabled human being, like in my case, leg pressing 930LBS on a parallel leg press machine, which is much harder, per the laws of physics to do, than a vertical leg press machine, 14 times, slowly with your arms raised in the air, growling like a gorilla that no one else currently evidences doing anywhere on YouTube, like this, other than me at age 54, come back and tell me you don't believe in free will.

And not only that I have done an art of dance walk in MIXED martial arts and ballet-like style, documented by way of Nike GPS sports watch over 3400 miles now in 20 months, wherever I go in the general public, as well as documenting, now, well over 200 gorgeous girls grinning ear to ear from the muse of dance I bring to them, in one of the top 100 dance clubs in America, as well as being assessed as the literal "MVP of dance" there, by the general dancing, and spectating audience.

A random glob of bullsH** didn't create that friend; RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL JUST DID IT, and does IT, AS IS.

SOME FOLKS HAVE IT; AND SADLY ENOUGH SOME FOLKS DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE IT, AND PAY THE CONSEQUENCES, ACCORDINGLY WITH THEIR LACK OF FAITH, HOPE, AND BELIEF IN THEMSELVES in much greater ways of flesh and blood HUMAN POTENTIAL life OF REALLY MORE FULLY LIVING, in what truly counts in life, in connections to other flesh and blood human beings, as nature and evolution 'dictates',

per Mother Nature TRUTH AND LIGHT AKA GOD.

THE TRUTH AND LIGHT BIT, BY THE WAY,

IS SIMPLY A METAPHOR FOR WHAT WORKS, BY A WAY.

To be strong and love, is to have human relative free will.

Anything less, is a self imposed prison of a 'robot mind'.

And truly the lack of relative human free will, is the illusion,
and apparently at least in SOME situations, a place where a
get of jail free card, is as close as relative
human free WILL IS.

So yeah, I know a 'little' about Quantum Physics too;

But I know a whole BUNCH more about human relative FREE WILL,
when the flesh and blood hits the challenges of the real
highways of life, than it appears exists in your universe,
@ALL, at this time; but the GOOD NEWS is CHANGE IS
ALMOST ALWAYS POSSIBLE FOR THE BETTER WITH
RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL AND ACCOMPANYING
GREATER POTENTIAL PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE;
regulating emotions, integrating senses, increasing
and enhancing cognitive executive functioning, through
greater focus and short term working memory; that obviously
also is one potential cure for the disabling aspects of Autism
as noted in the clinical environment. Truly, a systemizing mind
without the emoting powers of emotions and senses in mind and
body balance, lacks a great deal of human relative free will; as truly
it is disabling not to exercise relative human free will, in all the ways
that can just happen, when a person just does it, instead of talking about
what they cannot do, anathema to what humans areevolved as, per creatures
that overcome amazing challenges of life, as all free animals do not imprisoned by
false illusions of 'HUMAN ZOO LIFE' through abstract language, cultures, and religions that
do JUST THAT; THAT TRULY AT CORE OF HUMAN NATURE IS NOT 'JUST' AT ALL FOR WHAT
IS POSSIBLE IN HUMAN POTENTIAL WITH RELATIVE FREE WILL, WITH THE METAPHOR OF THE
QUANTUM HUMAN MIND unleashed, WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAS 'SQUAT' TO DO WITH REAL
QUANTUM PHYSICS. The Fact is, IN AT LEAST MY CASE, HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL HAS EMPIRICAL
RESULTS THAT I CAN CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE WITH JUST A YOUTUBE LINK, WHEREVER THESE LEGS OF
'STEEL', IN HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL
TAKE ME ANYWHERE
I WANNA GO.

AND SURE, the dance halls with hundreds of gorgeous girls, is part of that, with Just a little sampling
of that in my latest blog post, if you think I am just spewing more human bull crap here.

Smiles and HAPPY WILL TO YA, IN NOW, WHEN YA GET IT AND JUST DO IT...

And for NOW THAT reminds me of THIS SONG, BY MIKE WILL, AND MILEY; AMUSINGLY ENOUGH,
to me, at least, with human relative free will in the imaginative creative mind of physical intelligence set FREE;


AKA MY OWN PERSONALLY DEVELOPED METAPHOR OF THE QUANTUM HUMAN MIND UNLEASHED;

AND YEAH,
perhaps the science of Quantum Physics,
one day will better explain how I do what I do, as doctors currently have
NO FRIGGING CLUE,

LITERALLY, NO FRIGGING CLUE.

BUT UGH, science,

per the ugh, scientific method,

is way to slow for me,

baby..

I learned the lesson of that as a research associate,

at the University level, of so-called 'expertise',
over 3 decades ago...

Lesson Learned;

EMPIRICAL RESULTS:

ALL NATURAL HUMAN MIRACLES
COME TRUTH.

THE RESULTS SPEAK THE TRUTH.

I DON'T NEED A FRIGGING LAB COAT,
TO EXPRESS THAT TRUTH, EITHER, WITH
WINKS OR NOT, TOO................

OR 'MORSE CODE'..

LIKE THIS:



'WILL' IS COOL...

WITH SMILESX2....