Lessons from Universe 25

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Yes, most definitely a paradigm shift of cultural induced change is well underway as we speak.

Humans are becoming more 'selfie' oriented, if you will; and that's a good thing for the survival of the world; as generally more self obsessed folks looking within for answers aren't as much in a rush to reproduce. Overpopulation, is the major issue now in the world for long term human survival, so all the activities other than reproduction are healthy ones now; opposed to reproduction and greater numbers of human population to survive as a species in the distant past.

Of course, this doesn't mean there will not be a great deal of human discomfort, misery, and suffering as this change happens and folks become more disconnected in flesh and blood relationships, like Japan; but never the less, less flesh and blood relationships means less sex, overall; and less sex in terms of reproduction is a goal; the world needs to greater accomplish to survive.

No easy answers; but exciting to be a part of it, for hopefully a few more decades to see the results from my ivory tower of comfort.

Change is happening; and it's fascinating to watch as a participant Anthropologist observer in the real life action of it, as well..

I don't see it as a matter of no social roles because of abundance, Aghogday. The mice cannot get their mentality together to create such roles because they are stressed out and then you have that one group of older mice that want everything to stay the same because they have the sense they are entitled since they have been around the longest. If allowed, the bullied mice would all leave that enclosure and start their own colony in a new one, same conditions of abundant food and water, and would flourish a bit then the outcasts and younger ones that cannot function in that enclosure would branch off and this would be a continual cycle until no place existed to branch off to then you would see that collapse only it happened more quickly because the enclosure was small. Has nothing to do with "abundance" and everything to do with too great a population with no room for the younger mice.

This experiment suggests there needs to be places for the youth and ones who don't belong to go and to set up their own civilizations, away from the established order or everyone stops functioning and collapse is imminent. The older mice will eventually lose their stranglehold on the mouse civilization if the younger ones are not allowed to escape and go someplace else.

My main point, it's got nothing to do with abundance, and everything to do with confinement.

However, I do realize it's bad to go overboard with too much food, etc, but that's not the same as simply being allowed access to food. Gluttony is unhealthy. If you smoke five pack of cigarettes a day, you are most likely going to be worse off than someone who smokes one. I am a minimalist.

To be honest, I can relate to the situation the mice were in. I wish someone would have taken some mice to another home instead of leaving them in there. Seems torturous. I feel anxiety just imagining all those poor mice constantly surrounded by other mice without ever getting a much needed break.

One thing we do see in our modern, western, human society is the break down of the parental roles, especially here in the US. Many parents have abandoned their roles, even if they do not consciously admit it. It is often up to the state to raise the kids either in schools or school provided day cares. Kids spend most their time here. Sometimes, the state raises the kid entirely. Parental roles are something that society does not fully support. Even the requirement to have a job where the parent spends a lot of time working is a giving up of the parental role and people say, hey we have to do this to survive, but that's just our society's ruthless structure speaking. It's not fashionable to parent and it is often seen as a ball and chain around the individual to have to fulfill the parental role on a daily basis.

The best thing the state could do is provide ultimate level nurturing in schools and daycare because kids do not get the nurturing they need at critical times. It is what I recommend.

So when teachers are saying, kids are here to learn, they should have been taught that at home, they are far from reality thinking that way. It's actually the school that must be the family, it could be the only opportunity for nurturing a kid has. So, schools need to leave the mindset they are a learning institution behind and operate from the philosophy and mindset they are a form of extended family and always a safe place for kids to be.

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 09 May 2015, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

There is no doubt that over-population and issues of confinement, per issues of restricted environmental space are an issue of social stress and the problem of instant gratification, among the rats and among humans exposed to similar environmental challenges.

Wonder what it will take for us to wake up from this dazed sleep and put the value on nurturing? I have always been keenly aware of this deficit, even while growing up I was often stunned at the complete inability of some people to nurture anything. Even most animals can do it, they have that instinct but some of the humans, completely void of any instincts whatsoever and I wondered why? And I wondered how they made it this far...then I reached the conclusion it really does take a village to raise a child, like Hillary says. Gotta use branches of society to fill in the gaps left by some people who cannot muster the ability to parent for whatever reason. No sense in judging them, just fill in for them.

And this is not just a recent phenomena! Look at the ancient Israelites and Moses. Didn't he become their parent when they needed guidance the most? It's why we have the ten commandments. Humankind has been struggling with this issue for quite some time.

A LACK OF human empathy that generates personal attacks on others for no other reason BUT to feel something of attempting to cause others pain, because of a heart and soul that is empty of nurturing love from smarty pants mothers and fathers who spend all their time with materialistic and intellectual gains, are the cause of much human misery and suffering.

To understand the deficit of empathy that science shows is increasing, by the day in modern cultures where humans are becoming more machine than human, is to have empathy for those who truly do not have the most important kind of intelligence in social cognition to share and socially cooperate in a positive and unconditional loving way.

And as mentioned before the modern psychology of science, suggests that children not properly nurtured before the age of 2, never develop the wiring for human unconditional love FOR nurturing each other for survival, so true evil can be something that is not taught, in terms of nurturing love.

The reptiles are often those children who are not nurtured under the age of 2, as truly what remains is the reptile brain, so the Illuminati conspiracies about reptiles gaining control of the world, are true in this sadder than imaginable METAPHOR IN reality of those humans today, who have a reptile brain but not much of a heart and soul capable of sharing and expressing unconditional nurturing love...

Yeah, truly mother's, father's, and friend's day, should be a national holiday of recognition of those humans who still have both the potential and practice of unconditional love in REAL LIFE NOW..

THERE IS NO HUMAN GIFT GREATER IN THE UNIVERSE THAN THE MOTHER'S LOVE THAN CAN BE THE BOY, GIRL, MAN, OR SINGLE WOMEN'S LOVE AS WELL..

AND thanks Ana, I think THAT IS gonna be my Mother's day post and gift to my mother who is all unconditional love when I am growing up, making me the kind and loving man I am today. But no doubt, my strength comes from my law enforcement father of 46 years, who has no earthly idea how to express love or nurture much more than a cat that truly is all of what proves his humanity, to me, as boy and man.

Eventually, I have to find that strength in my own eyes, provided as only genetic gift, as my father never shares his love or strength with me in real life; but yah, having one intensely loving parent can be enough, to make love grow stronger, than most people can imagine, in real life now..

Thanks, Aghogday and a very Happy Mother's Day to your Ma!
One nurturing parent can be enough and that's another thing society doesn't express, appreciation for the nurturer who can be either a man or a woman who is willing to nurture. Instead they tear people down with divorce statistics and ruthlessly, relentlessly hate on the single parent, especially if she is a woman. Unfortunately, they are only harming themselves in the process because one law of survival, you must make the most of what you have and if the only one left is a single mother, so be it, let her do as much nurturing as possible because she could be the ONE savior who will see her children onto success if she is encouraged to provide that nurturing and support but society will throw as many road blocks in the way as it can to inhibit and disintegrate the nurturing energy, just like the short circuiting of the mouse society in the controlled experiment. Single parent men don't get as much flack. Single parenting is just a fact of life, no sense on hating them. Instead try to help them be the best parents they can. Help them be the one shining light in a dark world.
Then, you have people determined to devalue the parental role, they proclaim single parents are the evil of the world but this is only ruthless structure's attempt to, once again, erode and undermine the critical parental role. Again you only hurt yourselves. Your reality suffers when you do that because the kids aren't just going to go away. One day they will be required to function, or not, in society which you will be a part of. You will depend on them so make the most of it. Quit sabotaging and support the parental roles. Value them. Don't fall into the trap of the ruthless structure who cannot fathom objectivity in this survival matter.

The irony, which is never found lacking in humanity, is the parental role, much like basic land and water resources, are the most valuable things you have because without them you have nothing. Nothing at all. Just bleak darkness and pain. Value them. Number one priorities.

Good questions to ask about this experiment are, and we have seen such scenarios historically like with Babylonians, Egytpians, Mayans, Greeks, and Romans history, is a decline inevitable and if it is, what do we during the decline? Do we just say piss on it and live it up? Do we try to stop it? Do we act like it isn't happening? What are the answers?

If it isn't inevitable and we haven't completely gone short circuit, what is there left to do to alter the current?

This is directly related to the "idle hands" effect. Often, it seems that when social animals have too much time on their hands they kill time by engaging in deviant, non-functional behavior. That's what Calhoun observed in his mice, and I'm suggesting that this could explain some of the deviant behavior we see among unemployed/socially disengaged urban poor (and other populations).

We cannot ethically do experiments on people, so we have to make guesses based on observations of other social animals that we can experiment on... This is far from perfect, but it's the best a social scientist can do.



Yes, exactly. If you let the mice spread out BEFORE the social breakdown begins they will find social roles and mouse society will continue as before.

There's a bunch of cause and effect going on here.

Cause-abundant resources results in the effect of increased population.

Cause-increased population results in the effect of increased conflict over limited social roles.

Cause-increased conflict over social roles results in the effect of social breakdown and eventual mortality of the colony.

Like you said, the artificial confinement of the colony DOES force this to happen as a condition of the experimant, but that does not invalidate any of the experimental findings.



What you are failing to comprehend is the NATURE of confinement in the real word. You're assumption that all people are free to go out on their own is PATENTLY FALSE.

Poor black males cannot negate the effects of being poor, male or black by locating to a different place. In the US the confinement comes in the form of institutional racism and oppression and a culture that tells them they are not welcome in the greater society.


we would much rather throw some food stamps and a meager welfare check at our urban minorities and keep them in their own neighborhoods--in their own universe 25. That's a big reason why we see riots and crime in minority communities now.

Besides the pervasive oppression, another reason why these populations cannot simply "relocate" as you'd suggest has to do with more human psychology.

According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs: physiological --> safety --> love/belonging --> esteem --> self-actualization.

That's how human needs go, and until on set is satisfied, we cannot really go on to fulfill the next set.

In the US, our current welfare system and culture of oppression pretty much keeps poor minorities stuck between physiological needs and safety concerns... So, they cannot really get past that. They're stuck.

This is why we need a social welfare policy that will help get them UNSTUCK--and help then actually integrate into the large society in a positive and meaningful way.

But then what the hell do I know? Everything I learned about sociology and psychology I learned in a university classroom... and field work... and by reading lots of peer reviewed research...

I tend to think of that also in terms of the effect of education that spans out all over the world; ie. birth rate and average educational level seem to have an inverse proportion and even birth rates in places like Africa have been dropping in proportion to education. Fewer sustenance farmers equals fewer people reproducing in numbers for the sake of having farm hands and better medical access means fewer births since infant mortality is drastically lowered.


I could see increasing numbers of people turning to the philosophic life. Already I can't imagine what else guys and girls who are living single into their thirties and forties could do if they want to keep themselves alive and going. A few years back I joked that as more and more males got spurned by women for no longer being as alpha and strictly sex-driven as the mullet-headed Daytona-driving cowboys of a couple generations back that a lot of those guys, dealing with their existential crisis would do a lot of what I found myself coming to do recently - ie. the "What does it all mean?" question leading to discovery after discovery and eventually I find myself reading more and more obscure books on everything from magic and mysticism to renaissance alchemy and the like or diving off head first into the Greek classics; stuff people simply wouldn't have any reason to do otherwise.

My joke was that the shut-in 'failed males' of our generation would be the cause of a new golden age of philosophy, that the next Socrates or Plato could come out of the cave of his parent's basement at 40 with new precepts for life in the modern age - holding them in two tablets like a geeky Charlton Heston. It really might happen that way, human resource that goes to waste, as the OP experiment shows, turns back and cannibalizes itself - goes suicidal - unless it can find it's own brand of usefulness.


Anyone whose living with good financial and personal strategy, who has the self-control to think and live with discipline and long term aim, has a major leg up on the rest.

Humans tend to find trouble when they have nothing to do, and sometimes even when they are busy, they find it. What having nothing to do allows is the freedom to use your energy for other things besides the task you are directed to do. The task could be beneficial or not, depending on what it is. When you don't have a task, what you do have is energy. All of it comes down to that because it a basic level, that is what you are dealing with. Now if these mice were not confined to this little bubble world, they would be spending that energy wandering around, exploring, since they are mice, they aren't going to be spending it at a seven to five job. It's a matter of being confined, not necessarily having your basic needs met.
You could argue something beneficial; exercising, is a pointless activity because you are not really doing anything but burning energy yet it helps to dissipate it. Over grooming tends to be a problem in animals because it can lead to hair loss and self mutilation. The simple remedy is allow more time for exploration and exercise. This is what people do when they have this problem with their pets. Another cause for it is a vitamin deficiency. Not sure what the mouse diet is or if all mice have access to food in that little mouse world what with dominance established and all.

Yes, and take a look at Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Romans, Babylonians, Sumerians, even the ancient Israelite civilization. Where is Atlantis? See the pattern? Universe 25 might have occurred many times previously in humans. Who knows how many are lost to the obscurity of antiquity. Listed are the ones we know existed. So you see, it has happened before. It's nothing new.



What I do wonder is, what if the scientists took the traumatized mice and removed them in the midst of the chaos, put them in another enclosure where they experienced a sense of isolation and safety. Would they experience a recovery despite how hopeless things seemed in the other enclosure? Would they be able to, eventually, get it together and form a productive society of their own?

I do believe in this concept of a Ruthless Structure that permeated the mouse kingdom and does permeate the realms of the US as well. It goes against what should be obvious and it sets up road blocks that might cause the collapse, like for the mouse colony. It's obviously a very difficult thing to alter and some are not even aware of it's existence. Some will not even be aware after becoming educated on this. They will still deny and carry on like always, declaring it's all about their personal freedom and this and that holds them back, isn't modern or important enough, and they must be allowed to do whatever they want when they want, which goes against every grain of reality and may prevent long term survival. The question becomes, do they really care? If they are at a certain point in their dysfunction, they may be incapable of it and just want to live their lives their way regardless of consequences.

As far as going out on your own, yes you can do that in a country like the US. It might not be easy but anyone can go anywhere. Even if you think the KKK are right around the corner, and they could be, you are still legally allowed to use that street. You can go anywhere you want. It's a free country. Doesn't matter your race, gender, creed. Legally, you are free to go unless it is private property or something like that. Public road, yes, you can travel down it. Public transportation? YES you can take it. There are even laws to protect minorities in their search for housing. Technically, a black person is legally allowed to go on any public road anywhere in this country if they want to do it.


This is where you might be mistaken. They might find, they can get a job out of their comfort zone if they look and apply. Not sure about all parts of the US but where I live, definitely they can do this. It's a sure thing. I see it everyday. We do not ghettoize people based on their skin color here.



I think more attention definitely should be paid to the condition of these schools and there should be a new philosophical approach to their function as a safety net in society where they can provide what a family, for instance, cannot for whatever reason, at the same time encouraging the real family to develop their nurturing ability and discouraging destructive, abusive behavior within the family. This will give a good, solid foundation for later life. As far as relocating, blacks relocate to the suburbs everyday. I am not sure where you are located but it must be a difficult area which I am sure exist, but that's not everywhere. First it's a matter of giving kids that safe growing environment because most of them can function as adults when they are provided that. Then you train them for whatever job, they get it, then they move to the suburbs. That's life, as boring as it may be.


I don't blame the welfare system. I blame the breakdown in the parental roles. That is such an important component to civilization and every decade it becomes more eroded. People do not feel like they have accomplished anything without a job of some kind but they cannot have a job and be a parent at the same time. Society demands kids go to school anyway so...what do you do? You have to provide the right environment in the schools to make up the difference. A woman on welfare CAN be a great parent but a lot of times, they are so busy being torn down, they lose all hope and resort to destructive behaviors when they should be treating the role of nurturing parent like their full time job. Their reward is a kid that can function in society when older which is the best reward they could have, right? So much goes against this concept, though. Parenthood is loathed and mocked. If a man or woman stays home with the younger kids, they are thought of as being less than someone who goes out and earns a salary everyday and gives most their time to some corporation. Parenthood is actually the most important role unless you want the mouse phenomena to occur where the civilization declines and dies out. What do you think the main component in that was? Breakdown in the parental roles. It's so obvious.



President Clinton already tried that. I think my approach is much, much more practical. Start with the kids. Nurture them. Protect them. That will give them the ability later on to march through life with grit and determination and to want the best for themselves. It's not about spoiling them with material things, it's about providing that invaluable environment for them early on that will allow their cns to be strong and give them the strength to do the task and carry on. It's a matter of strength in your CNS and that is enhanced by early nurturing. CNS is a system that needs building up after birth. This is the way you will PREPARE them to have the courage and drive to get out there and take care of business. They will be strong enough for that. You cannot put the cart before the horse.

Goonsquad,
I just came up with an idea. If it is true, black youth in places like St Louis and Baltimore feel hopeless and like they are confined to certain areas and there's no chance of ever escaping, I would encourage non profit activism groups to arrange marches on various public streets throughout the country comprised of the youth who feel as if they are going nowhere and doomed. Get them out there and let them see first hand, it is not a Universe 25 they exist in. I think such marches would be therapeutic for their psyches and would get them in touch, first hand, with the possibilities. Just fly them to various locations, even places without a lot of minorities, and let them walk, together, down a street. Let them experience that sense of freedom if it would help.

The first problem, there was always food and water.

Hunting food is rat employment. It is also social, and the first thing to teach the young.

The rats did not increase to the limit. Reproduction behavior stopped. Nurturing the young stopped.

So it is not just confinement, though I would see the same test run with twice the space. Half the space. Science!

Mostly, a breakdown of need. Food and water always available, then a progressive decline of all other behaviors, and then secondary effects, badly nurtured children and their behavior. 600 days was short, perhaps some of the original lived that long.

History does show that decline always happened to cities. They had long ago fallen before outsiders showed up. Rome, Egypt, Babylon, all follow the same pattern. Before they reach their largest borders, they are falling apart within.

Rome fell in 410, but all that was left were some crazy people living in the sewers and tombs. What might have been a million people vanished. Constantinople lasted longer, but the vast majority of Roman Citizens ended.

In all these early cultures, they knew how to build, secure food and water, and defense. They had the manpower. If the farmland ran down there were whole other regions available. Failing crops, economic failure, bad government, can all be overcome, but they just ended.

Even without walls, cities draw people in, cut them off from the natural means of getting food, and they come to depend on the artificial life support of the city.

Starting around 1500 we started the Fourth Age of Cities. Rome had stood as a ruin for a thousand years.

An open rat habitat with food and water always available in the center, how far would rats wander?

Depending on an artificial system does seem to break up natural systems, and food seeking and child care seem linked. Children taught to live in cities have a different world view than those on the farm.

All city experiments have failed. Epigenetics, the amount of change possible in one generation is large, several generations can lead to change to the extent of not being able to function.

When Tokyo had a major earthquake, 40,000 dead, they rebuilt. Rome did not have a major event, they ceased to exist.

There does seem to be something about large groups living together, that expires.

Inventor, isn't it true that rats, like other rodents, move into human homes so they can easily obtain food? Once there they will stay as long as they can. They like being with people because the food source is easy. To think that a rodent will perish with an easy food source has never been my experience with them. I even had a squirrel move into my house to be near the dog and hamster food. Actually, they seem happiest and healthiest when they are NEAR a food source but can get out on their own, too, if they need to. The squirrel made a hole in the trim on the side of the house, he came and went as he pleased. Believe me he was more than thrilled to have access to that easy food. It did not harm him in the least and he sought it out. He didn't prefer the continual grind of the constant day-to-day search for food.

I just thought of something else - the rise of the Nazi party in Germany and this Universe 25 over crowding experiment. We see all sorts of strange behavior in the Nazi party and this obsession with living space. Doesn't it sort of remind you of the mice and rats living in these experiments? Could pathological warfare be the ultimate expression of the Universe 25 phenomena?

ONE thing, anyone can do, with positive energy, is express that energy in some kind of loving expression of human SpiRiT, whether it be words or action of inspiring others.

IF EVERYONE today, starts actually acting the part of the positive change they want to see in the world, instead of complaining about the negative things in the world; the positive energy will be tremendous for every now change.

Obviously, though; we live in a world where some people connect and socially bond over negativity, and others try to inspire others through positive action, in being the change they want to see.

Anyway, no effort of positivity is to small to change the world. And as far as saviors of the world go, I often repeat the following story that I make up as I go, to illustrate that where:

There is a young disabled boy who loves to water a small sapling tree, taking great care of that sapling in all ways he knows and feels he can. That tree grows into a tree that is so beautiful that college educated 'tree specialists' take notes and photos on the unique, and 'strong' tree it becomes. More often though, poets write about the beauty of the tree.

Anyway, one day a shy young man, walking down a sidewalk in front of the tree, meets a sparky young woman, who is eager to meet this handsome shy man.

The otherwise shy man, sees the tree and stops the young woman, and with glowing eyes speaks of the beauty of the tree.

Immediately a spark is made between these two that eventually grows into a tree of love too. And this young woman brings the young man out of his shell, and he goes on to eventually become a military leader, and a great political leader, as well. IN fact, the young man makes a political decision that is recognized as saving most of the world's population from looming World War Nuclear Three.

So who is the savior of the world; this young man; all the friends and school teachers who help this young man when he is in school, his parents who nurture him as a child; the young woman who takes him out of his shy shell; the tree; or the disabled boy who waters the tree.

Well, in fact and feelings, the answer to the quiz IS A RESOUNDING ALL OF THE ABOVE, AS ALL PARTS OF THIS YOUNG MAN'S LIFE COME TOGETHER TO MAKE THE REALITY THAT HE IS in TOTALITY OF LIFE EXPERIENCE.

AND THAT is how GOD works, as basically the BUTTERFLY EFFECT AND AFFECT, IN POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INSPIRING EMOTIONS, WHEN IT COMES TO HUMANKIND.

THERE IS NO POSITIVE ACTION TOO SMALL; THAT EVENTUALLY MAY WORK, IN PART, TO SAVE THE WORLD; THEREFORE, IT IS THE POSITIVE ACTIONS THAT ARE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD; FOR WHATEVER MAY COME TO BE IN THE FUTURE; NO ONE PERSON CAN SAY THEY ALONE ARE THE SAVIORS, WHEN almost everyone, in some way, is a supporting player of the entire team of GOD THAT IS ALL THAT IS ALLONE! ON EARTH! FOR NOW!..

SO YES, FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE LIGHT OVER DARK, per positive action verses negative action, THEY ALL ARE THE SAVIORS OF THE WORLD, for as long as humans, other creatures, and the earth, continue to exist.

And there are innumerable ways that one can 'SEND THEIR LOVE INTO THE FUTURE', AS NICELY put, in artistic effort by the great music artist STING, AS WELL; as this song too; will last as long as YouTube Rings this Truth!

Change starts with the human soul felt as heart, and expressed as spirit, ALL in emotional life of human beings.

POSITIVE Emotions, LIKE FAITH, HOPE, BELIEF, AND HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL, inspire action and life; to grow those emotions into a beautiful garden of expression, is Love of
GOD, expressed as humans..

History shows that is often the outcast or disabled person who makes the greatest difference in world history, from depressed Lincoln, to horribly ill John Kennedy whose assistant carries a full brief case in cocktail of prescription drugs to keep him going during his presidency.

And of course the religious and art worlds are fully of these same kind of unlikely heroes of humankind.

And, both Bill Gates and Steve Job, as nerd and geek, respectively, start out in the same basement/garage scenario at the wealthy parents home. Their outcast stature in youth, drives them to do stuff that no one thinks of before, more or less, with the help of other outcasts like them.

So yes, it's a bit of a privilege to be an outcast in this world, as the in-club is often full of cultural illusion through religions, and such as that for social bonding; that the outcast does not filter as much into bias, for potentially greater ways of making breakthroughs in life.

The meek and the outcasts are a bit of the same thing in the bible. AS it is those who are not bound to societal rules who often step up, and make the change for positive human effect and affect; in what is written about history of humankind, unleashed and released, in fuller 'Quantum' Power of mind and body balanced, or not..

A lack of data. The same experiment with twice the space, half the space, and ways to get out. Also all the rats were closely related. Use Norway Rats, but from British, French and German stock, and they will likely start building weapons.

Other rats who smell different, Semite, Roma, mass murder.

Greeks and Romans had no close enemies, so they started their own factions, The Blues and The Greens, who killed each other in the streets over sports events.

Europe has dealt with Diversity before.

Feed them Garlic, select rat accents, we could put the cages on the internet for science, and off track betting.

They did not follow through. Population did decline, rats did lose interest in normal rat behavior, but I would know, did they all die, or did the last few the last generation, start up the cycle again? Was it population pressure, or was the mental decline irreversible?

The Mighty Greeks, in later history are household servants of the Romans and Egyptians. Nannies, tutors, scribes. It seems they sold themselves into slavery. This is very passive compared to the early Greeks. They were the Beautiful Ones, bath house attendants, personal service. Christians.

WWII seems an echo of WWI, Heroes are born in war. WWI war babies fought WWII. They rejected the degenerate, and promoted physical culture. Conflict plays a role.

Living space to the east was long term German land taken after WWI. Prussia, Danzig, where the German population was murdered after the war. In return the Germans recovered the land, and killed the new owners by murder.

Perhaps it could be replicated, two connected cages, movable partition walls, we could start wars.

Conflict and disaster seem good, peace and plenty destructive.

The Middle East declined under the Ottomans, but the Great Powers overthrow and partition has produced strong countries of warriors.

Germany is the dominate economic power in the EU. The British have gone from Empire, to the loss of Ireland, maybe Scotland, Wales, but they have a secure hold on forty acres around Buckingham Palace. Otherwise, the British are a racial minority in Britain. Putting brown and black rats in the cage with white rats would play on the internet.

The only thing this experiment shows is a homogenous population with ample food and water, no outside threats, will decline. This could apply to what we know of Greece and Rome. The men spent their lives grooming at the bathhouse, shaving, working out, being anointed with oil, scraped, massaged, eating and drinking. They had their hair styled, and wore makeup and perfume. They worshiped Adonis, The Beauty of the Male.

The Greeks passed a law demanding than men marry by 35. It seems they chose to sell themselves into slavery, rather than marry. Currently 75% of males, 18 to 32, in the US are single, births have reached an all time low.

Rats, Hairless Ground Apes, Greeks, Romans, recent demographics, there does seem to be a pattern.