Are these things illusions?

Post Reply New Topic

With experience and practice, it is possible to grasp it, practice it, master it, and orchestrate it, as a merit of human excellence innately instinctually and intuitively as whole of human continual practice over the lifespan.

A choice NOT to do it is weak relative free will, others of us become Lions or Kings of the Jungle as Legend Dictates..

I'm sorry, but this is just utterly ludicrous. All of it.

I sincerely hope you don't actually believe this. I wish I had more time, but I'm on my lunch break now, so I have to go. I am making a choice to not go into the reasons why you are completely wrong about all of this, and it isn't due to 'neuronal activity', LOL!

The OP never provided any context to those words. So, they are just ideas.

You think of "space" as "a sequence of squiggles". I doubt about else thinks of "space" as such.

These are dismissive comments with no explanation.

Walrus's position that 'conscious will' can be predicted from brain activity is called "Neuronal prediction of free will'.
see here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscie ... _free_will

I am curious why you both think his position is so off base ?

The major counter-argument to Walrus's position is that quantum mechanics indicates that everything he describes functions based on indeterminate probability, therefore, there are pure random outcomes, not cause and effect. If you interpret QM this way.

I for one, provided a great deal of explanation in the comment that preceded THAT COMMENT. However; it was deleted as I use a literary device of language to overcome the inability of most humans these days to attend to more than a few sentences written all the way across a page without losing interest.

The reason that some folks do not like my accommodation for this as A literary device is they actually read it; instead of ignoring walls of text. It pisses them off 'cause they have to work a little bit in life and go outside their comfort zone.

[Mod edit: trimmed for length]

I didn't know I had a stance . I was merely postulating what I have personally discovered.

You say you "WILL" be affected in your decision making process by previous incidents in your life, but that incidents in your past can not make you actually "DO" anything.

Then you clearly state an example and in it you state a possible "craving" for chocolate which your consciousness may accept but which your "conscious MIND" can accept or reject as it pleases, depending on your internal logic. Did I get that right?

My statement presupposes both the "craving" AND your logical choice to reject the chocolate are based on previous decisions you constantly make that are below consciousness, in your sub-conscious. (You remember you didn't want to gain weight and the consequences that would involve). or (You remember chocolate gives you zits and your embarrassment over this). or (You barely remember being taught by your parents too much chocolate isn't good for you). Your memory and YOUR USE OF IT ,CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY are what you call "free will."

This is a studied branch of science and has been proven for a long time. A short test someone else offered as an example was noticing a person's decision making centers of their brain activate 1.5 seconds or so before their "conscious" mind makes a decision.... it's interesting and should be all online for your study, if you wish.

Without your past (remembered and unremembered) to guide you you'd be like a blank sheet of paper and without guidance. Instead you're a vital human being with a long background of experience with family, friends, school, work, etc., to rely on for guidance. You may not remember the details of every incident in your past life but it's well known your brain lays down neural pathways which allow you to effortlessly think using these past experiences.

This is a valid point. I would raise two counter arguments:

1) Neurons do not operate on a quantum scale
2) If they do, then randomness is not free will - it's randomness.

You didn't provide any explanation. I didn't delete anything of substance.

[MOD HAT]
It is rare for anyone to read your posts, as they are largely incoherent, and rarely provide any insight. You just break the page and force them to scroll for ages to get past it.

You have had this explained to you many times in private, and yet you keep going. You are making it harder for other people to use the forum, you are frequently the subject of complaints, you derail threads, and you have driven away multiple users. We've tried to work out agreements with you, but you have broken them.

You need to post in a way that is consistent with the needs of everyone else. It doesn't matter why you make incredibly long posts with strange formatting, you can't do it any more. We are happy to have you around but you can't keep going as you are.

This isn't up for discussion in public. If anyone does want to discuss it then PM me, but any discussion in this thread will be deleted.
[/MOD HAT]

On with the thread.

Weak relative free will. Like a dog on a very short leash. Only able to do as it's master commands for the most part, but able to maybe move on it's own just a tiny bit.

Utilizing such a tiny bit of free will to break free from suffering and enter a good life is like paying for one lottery ticket, and each time you lose, you get a strong electric shock that makes you want to never bet again. On top of that, everyone laughs at you for losing. But, you always do it again eventually, because you have a tiny bit of hope, something like 0.01% hope, and the rest is almost complete despair. Whatever it is you are hoping for in a good life is your subjective opinion.

No knowledge, and so very few opportunities, every attempt is trial and error without any learning. Trying so hard to live a good life, and getting nothing but electric shocks and derisive laughter coupled with the hopes and dreams of success. Destroy all hope, and maybe there will be no more pain. But, that is impossible to destroy all hope. Hope is a fundamental piece of torment. Desire. Or, fear of loss.

My fate is cruel. I could never choose such a fate. I would have ran from this fate long ago to live a good life if I had the choice, but no. There is no way to do so, I never had a chance. My faculties are very sparse, not enough to escape.

You, aghogday, had a loose leash, strong relative free will. You found a way out of the suffering, you had the faculties, you had the opportunity to escape, and you were able to put up with the electric shocks and derisive laughter, and from the depths, you've reached the surface and have gone above it.

There is no loose leash or tight leash. There is only gravity. You will do what you think is most efficient as gravity dictates. As far as you know how to. Why choose anything less for yourself or others? People want to get the most out of their lives, why waste it purposefully? Because all we know is all we know. If we don't know, we don't know. Life is merely knowing and not knowing. Knowing and seeing in the light and knowing nothing in the dark. Seeing good in the light, not seeing good in the dark. Seeing pain in the light, not seeing pain in the dark.

It's all variable. You could never judge another person because you were not there inside of their mind. They will most likely not know themselves either as they might not remember what brought them as far as they are now. But, fleas still bite you, they have to, and you will still hate the itch they leave on you. A person who helps you in some way is an enjoyable experience, but only if mutual, in my case. Of course the flea will love you, and you will hate the flea. But, love your enemy, right? Your enemy will cause your love to grow stronger for your allies. Turn them the other cheek, right? Because if you fight back, you're only making everything worse for yourself. Wouldn't it be nice to befriend your enemy though? Sounds nice. Too bad it's usually a parasite you have on your leg taking your blood and giving you nothing but itchy anticoagulant and a chance of disease.

^^^

Life is certainly not fair; at least in one life time if infinity does not allow more sentience cycles than that.
I have no illusion that close to even what might be described as a minority of people can achieve what
I have been able to do; however, at my lowest point there is not even a reflection of who I am now.

I was born fragile and weak; and remained that way for many years; I could not speak until age
4; and had problems communicating until my mid 40's; even though people thought I was
like superman for my problems solving abilities both at work and school;

For me what folks named as incredible intelligence was an incredible handicap for me
most of my life; and eventually my overworking mind almost kills me; in ways of
chronic human stress and what is assessed eventually by doctors and legally
as permanent disability with no chance of recovery.

I do my best to possibly help others arrive at the same point I did in all innately, instinctually
and intuitively healing myself and going to places of bliss and connection with literally thousands
of folks in real life that before I have no idea is possible in feeling, in the actual experience of it.
in existence at all.

The bottom line is there is always more possible in life than we think there is; and to feel life
instead of thinking about it in ways of mind and body balance in the physical intelligence of
regulating emotions and integrating senses is a first step for freedom of will for me;
and truly it is nothing new; eastern philosophies have been singing the praises of
mind and body balance and acting on it for thousands of years; while the western
world is one of external materialistic pursuits that never bring TOTAL SATISFACTION
IN LIFE.

I have the worst case of anxiety, then that my psychiatrist states he ever comes
across and he is an Air Force Major who dealt with the worst cases of combat
fatigue and PTSD. I have zero anxiety now; and in no way did I think that was possible
then, as then I have little control over my thoughts or the feelings in my body; including
emotions and senses; now I orchestrate all of that in flow all the time now; moving or
sitting still with the experience now of the bio-feedback of moving creatively in a
Martial arts ballet style flow for literally close to 3900 miles, approaching 23 months.

The answers now seems so dam easy; but THEN; I didn't believe I could get off the sidewalk
of culture; and honestly had no idea I was even trapped in a prison of culture; I never truly
understood the true message of the 'Matrix trilogy', until I literally become 'NEO'; and that
trilogy combines all of the world philosophies for singular metaphor for that truth in life
that the empathic and systemizing sides of mind must be combined along with mind and
body balance; and truly we can imagine and create our lives by writing it down and visualizing
it; where what is written becomes what is done; it is no fairly tale; it is not just a movie; the
Neo archetype is a real possibility; and I as fragile human being make it there; many more
can too; If they don't give up and like the ending credits of the Matrix Trilogy state
in oracle way; 'I BELIEVED'; AS THE moral to the entire Trilogy story; I never understood
that 'Believe' is an emotion and not just a word; now I understand both the emotion of
BELIEVE AND the amazing power it can bring to greater human potential in mind and
body balance; creating one's life as one goes; as the director, producer and actor
of one's own play; instead of being controlled by culture AKA the existing matrix.

Best wishes to you; all I know for sure is the answers come from within; trust your
heart; as the best tool to find and use; is my best advice for anyone to gain truest
freedom and satisfaction in life; hard to do though; of course with all the demands of
culture at hand; from a small child with a plate piled up with illusion that move far from
what human being even can be at much fuller potentials of what can be in life..

Well, I would guess imaginary numbers are imaginary, hence illusions...

People with aspergers often seem not to get jokes. I laugh when the rest have moved on to something else or gone home. I shouldn't argue about maths and science, but think the phi number and Pi are facts that were discovered, but suppose that's a debate for another thread.

This is debated by philosophers and mathematicians.

Mathematical realism,
"like realism in general, holds that mathematical entities exist independently of the human mind".

Mathematical anti-realism
"Mathematical anti-realism generally holds that mathematical statements have truth-values, but that they do not do so by corresponding to a special realm of immaterial or non-empirical entities".

Thus, the realists believe math concepts can be "discovered", however, the anti-realists believe that math is merely the application of the brain onto existence, and thus, no math can be "discovered".

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... jor_themes

Can we be certain about either argument? I mean Newton's gravity seems pretty well real to me, but Quantum Math could be thought up. However, Quantum Science and things like The Calculus seem to be ramarkably successful for things just invented. It is also interesting that both Newton and Leibniz hit on The Calculus independently at about the same time.

Your point #2 is made by a neuroscientist at the "CFI-NYC | The Science and Philosophy of Free Will".

At [53:45] He suggests to imagine that scientists discover that neurons fire based on random rolls of "neural dice". He argues that we would still not think we are anymore free.

It turns out that Archimedes of Syracuse was using a rudimentary (at least) form of calculus. We have one surviving document that sketches it out. Of course, it was lost and forgotten until recently discovered.