Jacoby
Veteran
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash
14 Aug 2015, 12:27 am
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,679
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
14 Aug 2015, 12:44 am
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.
Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.
The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.
By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.
And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.
West Virginia was more occupied than loyal, they had some referendum in which they voted for statehood that the far north of the state and a bunch of Union soldiers voted for while the rest of the state was occupied the by the Confederacy and solidly in favor of succession and no longer recognized the authority of those giving the referendum as the entire state of Virginia had already voted to secede. It wasn't constitutional nor was it democratic but then again that's Lincoln in a nutshell.
While I'm sure there was a Pro-Confederate element in West Virginia, the fact is, as they were the poorer part of the state, they very well knew that the war was the making of rich plantation owners, while it would be poor men like themselves who would bleed and die. And that's why the majority of people in West Virginia stuck with the Union.
And what is this vilification of Lincoln by conservatives and libertarians? As if keeping the country together, and ending the evil of slavery somehow wasn't praiseworthy! Jeez, you'd think you people would consider Jefferson Davis to be America's greatest President.
14 Aug 2015, 12:50 am
Orwell wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:roll:
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.
Bull. We're talking an entire region of the country that continues to memorialize and deify traitors who caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in defense of their "right" to brutally enslave and exploit an enormous number of human beings. This is black and white: the Confederacy was evil, and those who fought for it were traitors. Show me Germany's shrines to their WWII dead, or Hermann Goering Day celebrated as a national holiday.
Talk about "bull".
Equating the confederacy with the third reich.
Well, you're not the first and if you're trying to call me a nazi in a roundabout way I'll only take it as a compliment. I'm sure you remember my handiwork from before your long absence.
I aint changed.
14 Aug 2015, 12:57 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.
Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.
The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.
By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.
And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.
West Virginia was more occupied than loyal, they had some referendum in which they voted for statehood that the far north of the state and a bunch of Union soldiers voted for while the rest of the state was occupied the by the Confederacy and solidly in favor of succession and no longer recognized the authority of those giving the referendum as the entire state of Virginia had already voted to secede. It wasn't constitutional nor was it democratic but then again that's Lincoln in a nutshell.
While I'm sure there was a Pro-Confederate element in West Virginia, the fact is, as they were the poorer part of the state, they very well knew that the war was the making of rich plantation owners, while it would be poor men like themselves who would bleed and die. And that's why the majority of people in West Virginia stuck with the Union.
And what is this vilification of Lincoln by conservatives and libertarians? As if keeping the country together, and ending the evil of slavery somehow wasn't praiseworthy! Jeez, you'd think you people would consider Jefferson Davis to be America's greatest President.
What i think is really weird is Kentucky, which was never part of the confederacy, but now considers itself part of "the south", flys the stars and bars, and has almost exclusively statues of traitors on government grounds.
14 Aug 2015, 1:51 am
14 Aug 2015, 1:58 am
blauSamstag wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.
Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.
The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.
By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.
And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.
West Virginia was more occupied than loyal, they had some referendum in which they voted for statehood that the far north of the state and a bunch of Union soldiers voted for while the rest of the state was occupied the by the Confederacy and solidly in favor of succession and no longer recognized the authority of those giving the referendum as the entire state of Virginia had already voted to secede. It wasn't constitutional nor was it democratic but then again that's Lincoln in a nutshell.
While I'm sure there was a Pro-Confederate element in West Virginia, the fact is, as they were the poorer part of the state, they very well knew that the war was the making of rich plantation owners, while it would be poor men like themselves who would bleed and die. And that's why the majority of people in West Virginia stuck with the Union.
And what is this vilification of Lincoln by conservatives and libertarians? As if keeping the country together, and ending the evil of slavery somehow wasn't praiseworthy! Jeez, you'd think you people would consider Jefferson Davis to be America's greatest President.
What i think is really weird is Kentucky, which was never part of the confederacy, but now considers itself part of "the south", flys the stars and bars, and has almost exclusively statues of traitors on government grounds.
Kentucky is a southern state. Just because they didn't secede didn't suddenly make them a northern state. I'm sure not all Kentuckians during that time agreed with thier state's decision not to secede. I know a lot of Kentuckians that still don't. A lot of West Virginians didnt (and still don't) approve of the separation of the state either.
14 Aug 2015, 2:03 am
Fugu wrote:
Raptor wrote:
glebel wrote:
Orwell wrote:
How the hell did we ever tolerate that sort of nonsense? Didn't anyone tell these bastards they lost the war?
Being the descendant of Union soldiers ( three who died in the war ), I have always been offended by the " Lost Cause" mythology. I vote we pull a General Sherman on them. You know, kick their butts and burn down their houses.
Nothing like acts of terrorism to get them to see the light, eh?
big enough.14 Aug 2015, 2:11 am
naturalplastic wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:roll:
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.
What "freedom of expression" is being protested here?
Being a little disingenuous here?
Quote:
The larger nation tolerated one region flying the flag of sedition for decades after the war was over, and tolerating that region honoring the local traitors.
Sure, send in the federal troops to quash that freedom of expression.
Quote:
And now that same one region changes its mind and "expresses itself" by disowning the sedition of the past. And the only one who has a problem with this new "self expression" is you.
It's called "political correctness" and unfortunately it's permeating the better parts of the country.
What a shame.
Quote:
you're the one advocating censorship.
Yeah, shame on me.
14 Aug 2015, 2:12 am
Jacoby
Veteran
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash
14 Aug 2015, 8:11 am
14 Aug 2015, 8:50 am
14 Aug 2015, 8:59 am
Raptor wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.
Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.
The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.
By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.
And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.
West Virginia was more occupied than loyal, they had some referendum in which they voted for statehood that the far north of the state and a bunch of Union soldiers voted for while the rest of the state was occupied the by the Confederacy and solidly in favor of succession and no longer recognized the authority of those giving the referendum as the entire state of Virginia had already voted to secede. It wasn't constitutional nor was it democratic but then again that's Lincoln in a nutshell.
While I'm sure there was a Pro-Confederate element in West Virginia, the fact is, as they were the poorer part of the state, they very well knew that the war was the making of rich plantation owners, while it would be poor men like themselves who would bleed and die. And that's why the majority of people in West Virginia stuck with the Union.
And what is this vilification of Lincoln by conservatives and libertarians? As if keeping the country together, and ending the evil of slavery somehow wasn't praiseworthy! Jeez, you'd think you people would consider Jefferson Davis to be America's greatest President.
What i think is really weird is Kentucky, which was never part of the confederacy, but now considers itself part of "the south", flys the stars and bars, and has almost exclusively statues of traitors on government grounds.
Kentucky is a southern state. Just because they didn't secede didn't suddenly make them a northern state. I'm sure not all Kentuckians during that time agreed with thier state's decision not to secede. I know a lot of Kentuckians that still don't. A lot of West Virginians didnt (and still don't) approve of the separation of the state either.
It's a border state, and there were people in it who fought for slavery, but the state legislature voted to request support from the union. So it was a union state, which now glorifies a confederate past that it never had.
Jacoby
Veteran
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash
14 Aug 2015, 9:42 am
blauSamstag wrote:
Raptor wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.
Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.
The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.
By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.
And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.
West Virginia was more occupied than loyal, they had some referendum in which they voted for statehood that the far north of the state and a bunch of Union soldiers voted for while the rest of the state was occupied the by the Confederacy and solidly in favor of succession and no longer recognized the authority of those giving the referendum as the entire state of Virginia had already voted to secede. It wasn't constitutional nor was it democratic but then again that's Lincoln in a nutshell.
While I'm sure there was a Pro-Confederate element in West Virginia, the fact is, as they were the poorer part of the state, they very well knew that the war was the making of rich plantation owners, while it would be poor men like themselves who would bleed and die. And that's why the majority of people in West Virginia stuck with the Union.
And what is this vilification of Lincoln by conservatives and libertarians? As if keeping the country together, and ending the evil of slavery somehow wasn't praiseworthy! Jeez, you'd think you people would consider Jefferson Davis to be America's greatest President.
What i think is really weird is Kentucky, which was never part of the confederacy, but now considers itself part of "the south", flys the stars and bars, and has almost exclusively statues of traitors on government grounds.
Kentucky is a southern state. Just because they didn't secede didn't suddenly make them a northern state. I'm sure not all Kentuckians during that time agreed with thier state's decision not to secede. I know a lot of Kentuckians that still don't. A lot of West Virginians didnt (and still don't) approve of the separation of the state either.
It's a border state, and there were people in it who fought for slavery, but the state legislature voted to request support from the union. So it was a union state, which now glorifies a confederate past that it never had.
Slavery was about economics, Kentucky wasn't cotton state like most of the rebelling states whose economies were totally dependent on with slave labor so there wasn't the same motivation or fear for their way of life. Believe it or not, most of the country did not want to go to war even if they personally opposed slavery and even in the north Lincoln was thought of as a despot and warmonger. Kentucky was deeply divided over the issue of slavery, it had a union dominated legislature and a southern sympathizing governor who tried to remained neutral but both Union and Confederate troops entered Kentucky shortly after the beginning of the war and at that point the Unionist dominated legislature passed a resolution only ordering the Confederate troops to leave the state overriding a veto from the governor. Political leadership then like it is now not necessarily representative of the wants and beliefs of their constituents.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,679
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
14 Aug 2015, 10:04 am
14 Aug 2015, 10:28 am
14 Aug 2015, 10:31 am
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Former Georgia Prosecutor escapes jail for Ahmed Arbery case |
Yesterday, 6:52 pm |
| I hate holidays bc I can't interact- anyone have advice??? |
29 Dec 2024, 2:33 pm |
| Should spending the holidays with a family and husband be... |
25 Dec 2024, 9:32 pm |
| Musk and Trump publicly state support for H1-B visas |
01 Jan 2025, 2:07 pm |
