Ben Carson: "Gun control doesn't work for the crazies"

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08 Oct 2015, 1:06 pm

actually, the vast majority of shootings are committed by folks without mental illness and the vast majority of folks with mental illness would never consider hurting anyone. folks with mental illness are more likely to commit violent crimes than others at a similar ratio of men and women. should only women be allowed guns?

beneficii
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08 Oct 2015, 3:29 pm

ZenDen wrote:

beneficii wrote:

John Oliver goes after politicians who talk about mental illness to avoid talking about gun control after these shootings, suggesting that those are the worst times to talk about mental illness:

Only 5% of gun violence is committed by people with mental illness and people with mental illness are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

John Oliver is a good comedian....that's all. This doesn't give him standing in a serious discussion.

You quote: "Only 5% of gun violence is committed by people with mental illness..." But this is not an valid argument as it stands. Almost all the overall "gun violence" (in this country) described, is of the criminal variety, especially street gangs and cartels. No one denies this; many young lives are lost. But if you speak of school killings, etc. (which ignited this conversation) then I don't believe anyone would argue against mental illness (tendencies which could cause the subject to either harm themselves or other) being involved.

But I still think he's funny. But his being funny should not do a disservice to the people who need medical assistance with mental issues.

Would a source like this do you better?

Quote:

- "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)."

- "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."

- "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

-"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

Quote:

But I still think he's funny. But his being funny should not do a disservice to the people who need medical assistance with mental issues.

Don't worry. There is zero chance of that happening. As for your Donald Trump, Ben Carson, et al., crowd, I am very concerned about what would happen to people with mental illness. IMO, the main reason they say the shooters in the mass shootings MUST have mental illness is because they want to distance themselves from the shooters, which also increases the stigma of having mental illness, actual persons with mental illness be damned. Not only that, but they want to avoid discussing the hard things that contribute to the shootings, the hard things that affect all our society, not just some stigmatized "other," such as our society's glorification of violence, as well as the white supremacy and misogyny that continue to run rampant throughout our society. They are, however, not interested in implementing actual policy to help people with mental illness, because hardly anyone cares; people only want a scapegoat.

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beneficii
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08 Oct 2015, 3:38 pm

ZenDen,

Here is a 2015 article from American Journal of Public Health that examines the assumptions surrounding mental illness and mass shootings:

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pd ... 014.302242

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08 Oct 2015, 3:48 pm

Raptor wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

It's the crazies which are the very reason the rest of us need guns.

Exactly! Being armed and knowing how to shoot is really the only safeguard. It's no guarantee but it beats any other remedy.

I think the Western world's fear of death plays a big role here - ostracised people will go to huge efforts to break as many taboos as they can; keep in mind we're also talking about countries with way more gun control than the U.S., where these attacks happen as well. I know just about all there is to know about guns and that's why I never plan on owning one. Ballistics teaches peope how to shoot, fear teaches people to kill.

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08 Oct 2015, 3:49 pm

ZenDen wrote:

beneficii wrote:

John Oliver goes after politicians who talk about mental illness to avoid talking about gun control after these shootings, suggesting that those are the worst times to talk about mental illness:

Only 5% of gun violence is committed by people with mental illness and people with mental illness are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

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08 Oct 2015, 5:17 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

http://national.suntimes.com/national-world-news/7/72/1925624/ben-carson-gun-control-doesnt-work-crazies

Quote:

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson speaks during a town hall event at River Woods September 30, 2015 in Exeter, New Hampshire.

.....

Carson was asked what the government can do to curb gun violence a day after President Barack Obama made a plea for stronger gun laws following Thursday’s deadly shooting in Oregon.

He echoed comments Trump made Friday morning, saying the real issue isn’t gun laws but mental illness.

"Gun control only works for law-abiding citizens," Carson said, "It doesn’t work for the crazies."

WOO-HOO!! every ONE of them obtained their guns, LEGALLY!

Thats Obama's very point. Crazy folks are now able to get guns legally. Therefore we need stricter gun control laws so crazy people cant get guns.

The NRA wants you to argue against stricter gun control laws, not FOR stricter gun laws! Lol!

Crazy is a vauge term, what they are really saying is that those who have had/have mental illness diagnoses will be outlawed from buying guns across the board. So mental health issues = your second amendment right being violated, it would make more sense to have a registry of people who have a violent history but its more than likely just going to be anyone who has a mental health diagnoses.

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08 Oct 2015, 9:39 pm

ZenDen wrote:

beneficii wrote:

John Oliver goes after politicians who talk about mental illness to avoid talking about gun control after these shootings, suggesting that those are the worst times to talk about mental illness:

Only 5% of gun violence is committed by people with mental illness and people with mental illness are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

the definition of mental illness is NOT a tendency to hurt oneself or others. everyone has those tendencies. some people (generally mature people) are better at controlling those tendencies.

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09 Oct 2015, 11:31 am

cathylynn wrote:

I could have been more narrow in my statement and possibly instead said something showing the difference between the killings that happen everywhere everyday (mass school killings are so much more rare), and the horrific school shootings/killings such as Roseburg and Columbine, which I am addressing in this series of posts. Sorry if I stirred up confusion....I think we're all on the same page.

Or are you directing your statement to include the mental condition of these school shooters and do not feel mental anger and confusion (illness) was a major part of the cause of these killings (as opposed to "everyday" killings)? If so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

"should only women be allowed guns?" Although this might be a noble experiment, no doubt criminals would flout this law exactly as they do all others.

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09 Oct 2015, 1:19 pm

beneficii wrote:

Good article! I haven't read or absorbed all of it yet but intend to, thanks much

; lots of interesting approaches.

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09 Oct 2015, 1:23 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

http://national.suntimes.com/national-world-news/7/72/1925624/ben-carson-gun-control-doesnt-work-crazies

Quote:

WOO-HOO!! every ONE of them obtained their guns, LEGALLY!

Rather unlikely considering the political makeup of Congress, wouldn't you agree?

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09 Oct 2015, 1:28 pm

cathylynn wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

beneficii wrote:

John Oliver goes after politicians who talk about mental illness to avoid talking about gun control after these shootings, suggesting that those are the worst times to talk about mental illness:

Only 5% of gun violence is committed by people with mental illness and people with mental illness are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

the definition of mental illness is NOT a tendency to hurt oneself or others. everyone has those tendencies. some people (generally mature people) are better at controlling those tendencies.

Agreed. But I'm saying people with a gun control agenda, by trying always to steer the discussion away from mental health, can be causing a terrible disservice to many people.

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09 Oct 2015, 1:38 pm

cberg wrote:

Raptor wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

It's the crazies which are the very reason the rest of us need guns.

Exactly! Being armed and knowing how to shoot is really the only safeguard. It's no guarantee but it beats any other remedy.

You say: " fear teaches people to kill."

But proper training and common sense can and will teach you
when and how to properly use a firearm.
(also possibly how to save yourself or others from harm)

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09 Oct 2015, 8:12 pm

ZenDen wrote:

Agreed. But I'm saying people with a gun control agenda, by trying always to steer the discussion away from mental health, can be causing a terrible disservice to many people.

For your average gun control advocate it's all about gun control for the sake of gun control and nothing else. To them guns and gun owners are icky and that's the basis for their whole argument.

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09 Oct 2015, 8:19 pm

Bad people do bad things.

Bottom line.

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10 Oct 2015, 2:56 pm

ZenDen wrote:

cberg wrote:

Raptor wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

It's the crazies which are the very reason the rest of us need guns.

Exactly! Being armed and knowing how to shoot is really the only safeguard. It's no guarantee but it beats any other remedy.

You say: " fear teaches people to kill."

But proper training and common sense can and will teach you
when and how to properly use a firearm.
(also possibly how to save yourself or others from harm)

If someone really wanted to shoot me, why would they get close enough for me to shoot them? I say fearful reactions cause violence because I've dealt with that in person. I have range safety training as well as a fair bit with an amy vet friend. I've studied a lot of history and game theory, and I'm not really aware of any tactically sound way of defending people from weapons fire with more weapons fire. It really is just a repeating pattern of people responding to a threat by introducing more threats.

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10 Oct 2015, 3:03 pm

cberg wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

cberg wrote:

Raptor wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

It's the crazies which are the very reason the rest of us need guns.

Exactly! Being armed and knowing how to shoot is really the only safeguard. It's no guarantee but it beats any other remedy.

You say: " fear teaches people to kill."

But proper training and common sense can and will teach you
when and how to properly use a firearm.
(also possibly how to save yourself or others from harm)

You probably aren't going to be able to defend yourself from an assassination, but that's probably the only time you have to worry about some sniper trying to pick you off. You very likely could defend yourself in a robbery or assault though. I'm certainly not important enough for somebody to wait on a rooftop for me to go by, although I probably piss people off enough to.

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