'Matter is designed' argument for GOD...

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As I have mentioned before to you, the evidence of fine tuning is inscribed in the first article. With the precision necessary for fine tuning of biological life found in the pages of the article.

The second link provides a Bayesian interpretation based on the same author's understanding of fine tuning, and thus, provides some evidence of a supernatural creator based upon Bayesian probabilistic reasoning.

Yes.

If you remember, I did participate with you in the "GOD" thread regarding the probability math.

Here I was stating one my opinions regarding simply the complexity of matter.

1. It seems like physicists, in their pursuit of unifying theories, are developing theories that add complexity to how matter functions.

2. As the complexity increases, from an intuitive perspective, that makes me have more difficulty believing that the order of matter (how matter functions) was created randomly.

This makes me think:
- matter preexisted the "Big Bang"
-quantum effects preexisted the "Big Bang", and
-how matter functions presently preexisted the Big Bang, e.g., atoms, spins, charge, momentum, bonding, forces, fields

In other words, complexity came from complexity.

Design doesn't necessarily dictate the need for a god. Just a need for a designer. For all we know we can be a science experiment in a petri dish of some advanced high school alien.

reality is chaotic in it's entirety i believe. i believe that human brains are sensitive to only certain aspects of that chaos that are related to each other, and so a formulation of "intelligent design" is what human brains will perceive as a result.

chaos can be likened to "white noise" in a way. white noise is an equal loudness of every sonic frequency and sounds like "shhhhhhh..", but all the greatest musical compositions are just selective assemblies of slices of white noise, and so all perceptions of reality are just selective perceptions of all that is.

selective ignorance is a similar concept to selective perception, but works to block out, rather than to assuage a realization that is an intelligent series of perceptions.

if we were able to sense every manifestation of energy, then we would be blinded to anything that is derived from it.

________
in answer to those who go on about multiverses, i say that hey are all part of THE universe. it is odd that people who consider themselves very intelligent can not broaden their idea of what the universe is to encompass all that is in reality.
i agree that there was not one big bang, and that all the other big bang's manifestations are too far away to sense, but they all are part of the one universe. nothing exists "outside" THE universe.

there is also no such thing as "nothing" and so the meaning of what "nothing" is is not capable of consideration, no matter how intelligent one is. it does not mater what the level of insane intelligence any alien can possess, they can never derive an answer to x/0 because it is infinitely absurd.


time did not begin at any time (the irony). it has always been. there could have been no "time" in which "time" was not in existence.
if one says "time began 13.8 billion years ago", then it is obvious that that means "before time existed, time did not exist".
but there can not be a "before" if there was no time before time. that means that there is no such thing as "before" time, so therefore time always existed.


the real miracle is that anything exists really. when i was young, i reasoned that God just burst forth the energy which is the purest form of energy that then cascaded inter-dimensionally into a perfectly ordained reality that is like a divine computer program that accounts for everything and it's inevitability of expression. and i reasoned he did it outside from time and so never can he be seen or calculated.

But if that's the case then who designed the "high school alien"?

And if that alien is part of an experiment in the petre dish of a bigger high school alien, then who designed THAT high school alien, and so on, and so on...

I think as we recurse, the preceeding thing would be simplier.

Go back far enough, it's a thing that is in an indivisible form, so no further recursions are possible.

"GOD" is that indivisible form.

So, who created the "indivisible form"?

No one, if it could be created, then it would be divisible.

So, there is some initial thing.

I'd preface this one with a short description of my thoughts on the question - that is if we have a supreme deity or at least a unified source of consciousness that spoke the universe that we're used to seeing (and perhaps quite a bit more) into being, it immediately disqualifies any ex-nihilo claim on matter as something separate or in any way 'damnable'. It would essentially be juggling its own bits to make structures (the supreme adrogyne of the Egyptians comes to mind) and for It to speak matter into existence would be to give its own thoughts a life in a different form by the modifier of sound. Claiming that this is ex-nihilo creation is like claiming that electricity created by a steam turbine is ex-nihilo energy.

All of that said:

No, because it weighs what we'd consider an improbability against am infinite set. Even the odds of the first single-celled organism forming fairs better respect because at least that much is speaking to us in a language we can evaluate which is chemistry. Even there as well - statistics, probabilities, etc.. and the math we put behind them are a garbage-in/garbage-out type of thing; ie. miss a catalyst here or two and you're off by significant exponents. Accordingly that kind of guess at cosmological odds seems to only give more faith to the faithful and more proof of con-artistry to those who don't share the same beliefs.

If we actually come up with a model that tells us things that other systems can't tell us and its postulates include a conscious unity or at least a conscious creator or coder in a way that's irremovable then yes - that would be rather convincing evidence. Net of that you have the same problem I mentioned earlier - ie. something that's food for the faithful and little else.

Personally and experience tells me God is, was and will be.

That Matters too

me

Dr. Einstein and Dr. Kaku position was/is(resp.) 100% atheist and we are seeing a mischaracterization of their opinions.
The abundance of their work/commentary makes that very clear.

Proof: Dr Kaku says "I see no evidence of god" in this public debate on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D8ze789jss
crystal clear

I didn't know Albert E, but I liked his hair.

Regarding his belief in God, like a lot of folks his views changed through his life and writings.

Shalom

Me also known as

Zvi.

The aliens were the original indivisible form.

I can only speak for myself, and I believe in a personal God.

Albert Einstein firmly denied that he was an atheist, and said this firmly as well. He described himself as an agnostic who believed in a Spinozian God. That such, a God that has no interest in human affairs. He certainly did not believe in a personal God!

I think that you're missing the point.

My point was that invoking aliens as "designers" doesnt eliminate the need for God as a designer. It just pushes the need for God back one step. So its a bs argument. (Dont have a dog in this fight between atheists and non. Am just saying that that particular argument is bs).

Actually you both are wrong.

The original agents were not aliens, but were time travelers from Earth itself.

In our future humans will have perfected time travel. And a team of time travelers will explore the early earth of four billion BC. And they will be shocked to find earth barren back then. So they will seed the early earth with bacteria from the present day. That bacteria will infect the whole barren planet and start to evolve. After four billion years that bacteria becomes us. And we invent time travel so we can go back in time and insure our existence by seeding the earth with bacteria, and so on.

Its all a closed loop in which we "design" ourselves!

N. P.
I pictured a close up of the top of the Statue of Liberty peaking out of the sand when I read your post.

Just me also known as
Zvi

Ya mean something like the end of the original "Planet of the Apes"?