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skafather84
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08 May 2007, 5:42 pm

jimservo wrote:
The United States of America is a Christian country.



this statement goes against the first amendment and the intentions behind the first amendment as explained by james madison (the guy who had a hand in penning it).



the united states of america is a free country, not a country under christian oppression. sooner people realize that, the sooner we can get back on track to being the greatest nation.



jimservo
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08 May 2007, 6:40 pm

skafather84 wrote:
this statement goes against the first amendment and the intentions behind the first amendment as explained by james madison (the guy who had a hand in penning it).


Me quoting me.

Quote:
I endorse a secular government, rather then a theocratic one.


I do say that...

Quote:
The United States of America is a Christian country.


However I do not agree that...

skafather84 wrote:
this statement goes against the first amendment and the intentions behind the first amendment as explained by james madison (the guy who had a hand in penning it).


quoting the late Chief Justice William Renquist in his dissent of Wallace v. Jaffree

Quote:
James Madison was undoubtedly the most important architect among the Members of the [472 U.S. 38, 98] House of the Amendments which became the Bill of Rights, but it was James Madison speaking as an advocate of sensible legislative compromise, not as an advocate of incorporating the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty into the United States Constitution. During the ratification debate in the Virginia Convention, Madison had actually opposed the idea of any Bill of Rights. His sponsorship of the Amendments in the House was obviously not that of a zealous believer in the necessity of the Religion Clauses, but of one who felt it might do some good, could do no harm, and would satisfy those who had ratified the Constitution on the condition that Congress propose a Bill of Rights. 3 His original language "nor shall any national religion be established" obviously does not conform to the "wall of separation" between church and State idea which latter-day commentators have ascribed to him. His explanation on the floor of the meaning of his language - "that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law" is of the same ilk. When he replied to Huntington in the debate over the proposal which came from the Select Committee of the House, he urged that the language "no religion shall be established by law" should be amended by inserting the word "national" in front of the word "religion."

It seems indisputable from these glimpses of Madison's thinking, as reflected by actions on the floor of the House in 1789, that he saw the Amendment as designed to prohibit the establishment of a national religion, and perhaps to prevent discrimination among sects. He did not see it as requiring neutrality on the part of government between religion and irreligion. Thus the Court's opinion in Everson - while correct in bracketing Madison and Jefferson together in their exertions in their home State leading to the enactment of the [472 U.S. 38, 99] Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty - is totally incorrect in suggesting that Madison carried these views onto the floor of the United States House of Representatives when he proposed the language which would ultimately become the Bill of Rights.


Here indeed is the Thanksgiving Proclaiming signed into law by President George Washington and renewed by President Madison:

Quote:
"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

"And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and [472 U.S. 38, 103] us; and, generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best." Ibid.


(source case)

Irregardless, you should note the words that followed "The United States is a Christian country," namely that...

Quote:
however statistically it's absolutely true.


The government of the United States may not be theocratic but the people themselves may be majority Christian. Specifically according to the Pew Research Poll (the US does not census in regards to religion), in 2002, the they found the following results of US adherents:

Christian 82%
---Protestant 52%
---Roman Catholic 24%
---Mormons (Latter-Day Saints) 2%
---Orthodox *
---Something Else (Specify) 2%
---Don't Know/Refused 2%
No Preference 10%
Something Else (Specify) 2%
Agnostic 2%
Jewish 1%
Atheist 1%
Muslims *
(source)

Guess, what? The United States is a Christian county, just like Chile, Columbia, Ireland, and the Phillippines: all Christian majority countries with no official state religion. Turkey doesn't although clearly it's a Muslim country. It also has a defacto state religion (same one).



Deus_ex_machina
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09 May 2007, 7:18 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Possibly. I know you live in a different country, however, most people in most developed nations are stupid on economics.
Quote:

Well as I've indicated I don't know the basics, most people I know seem to at the very least know the basics.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Well, right, most sides have some element of truthfulness to them, the real question ends up which logical systems seem more robust and which side seems more supported by empirical evidence.


Yeah it seems like there is so much information to take in, it isn't reasonable, it isn't workable for the average person. Hell it isn't workable for me. There are just too many questions to consider, sides to take in, and then you have to put it all together and do it all over again with that new infomation. I don't see how people are supposed to make up their minds about this sort of thing.


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rideforever
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13 May 2007, 12:02 pm

Here's political view :

The current geopolitical system is leading to the death of our planet and our species - a bit of tweaking is not going to help.

We need something very different before it's too late.



Awesomelyglorious
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13 May 2007, 2:20 pm

rideforever wrote:
Here's political view :

The current geopolitical system is leading to the death of our planet and our species - a bit of tweaking is not going to help.

We need something very different before it's too late.

Hmm.... not very descriptive I don't think. Does sound like you might be driven towards radical politics though, perhaps variants of anarchism? I don't know.



rideforever
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13 May 2007, 2:53 pm

Quote:
Hmm.... not very descriptive I don't think


It is very descriptive : the planet is being destroyed, mankind is under severe threat : have you ever a graph of human population growth - it looks like the planet is having a heart-attack right about now ... worse is to come.

Talking about minor tweaks to the system (foreign policy or voting etc...) is to miss the big picture. We don't need tweaking we need massive overhaul.

I don't have a solution. But I have clarity.



Awesomelyglorious
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13 May 2007, 5:53 pm

rideforever wrote:
It is very descriptive : the planet is being destroyed, mankind is under severe threat : have you ever a graph of human population growth - it looks like the planet is having a heart-attack right about now ... worse is to come.

Talking about minor tweaks to the system (foreign policy or voting etc...) is to miss the big picture. We don't need tweaking we need massive overhaul.

I don't have a solution. But I have clarity.

That is not the aspect I was talking about. Human population growth is up, it jumped up when the Industrial revolution hit and while it has gone down in richer nations is up in poorer nations.

Right, you mentioned that, however, that does not prevent one from holding a political view, it merely might skew one towards radical changes.

Ah, so you simply see a problem but don't know the view to fix it, that adds clarity to what your views are.



skafather84
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13 May 2007, 7:33 pm

to jimservo:


your figures come from a religious source. perforum is hardly an unbiased source of information.


and muslims actually represent a much larger percentage of the population than what i'm assuming is less than 1%.



jimservo
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13 May 2007, 9:18 pm

skafather84 wrote:
your figures come from a religious source. perforum is hardly an unbiased source of information.


Pew Research, the polling firm is a religious source? What is the basis for this? I have heard claims made against Frank Gallup because he has some religious affiliation, but not Pew. I also think Pew, if anything is somewhat left of center generally, at least politically.

skafather84 wrote:
and muslims actually represent a much larger percentage of the population than what i'm assuming is less than 1%.


In the March 2001 poll they registered at 1%. In a 1996 poll they registered less then 1% also (there is a statistical margin for error; the poll was of 2,000 adults). Athiests failed to reach 1% in 1996, but registered 1% in both 2001 and 2002.

Another source, linked here, lists 1.5%, apparently using different methods. It also includes those from "The Nation of Islam," whose theology is not similar to Islam in general.

According to, Wikipedia, not my favorite source*,

Quote:
The American Jewish Committee as well as several demographers have questioned CAIR about its estimate that there are seven million Muslims in America. Other estimates of the Muslim population have ranged from 1.5 to 3.4 million.


(source)

Assuming, the total is 3.4 million, which is far higher then the usual estimation, that gets you to 1.13%.

*another source