Do Atheists really consider Christians less intelligent?

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Yo El
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06 Apr 2017, 6:16 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Because children aren't born theists and have to be taught out of it.
You have nothing to back that claim up.



Wolfram87
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06 Apr 2017, 6:28 am

"Children are not born with a belief in a deity" is a negative claim. It requires no positive evidence. It is true until demonstrated false.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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06 Apr 2017, 9:21 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
"Children are not born with a belief in a deity" is a negative claim. It requires no positive evidence. It is true until demonstrated false.

I'm not convinced that a negative claim is true by default.
Hmm, I wonder what these say about that,
http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/SocialSciences/ ... -Proof.htm
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resourc ... -fallacies

Since there seems to be no way to read a newborn child's mind to determine what, if any, beliefs may or may not be held the assertion sounds to me like one of this;
"Argumentum ex Silentio (Argument from Silence): The fallacy that if available sources remain silent or current knowledge and evidence can prove nothing about a given subject or question this fact in itself proves the truth of one's claim."
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/E ... lacies.htm


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06 Apr 2017, 2:39 pm

Yo El wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
Some people may believe that because they were taught that as children. I personally see it as nonsense, but a creationist could say the same of atheism (which I would disagree with).
And why would atheism be an exception of the rule?

Most atheists are not from atheists homes.



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06 Apr 2017, 2:55 pm

Would you be comfortable in a court of law that assumed a positive claim made about you to be true unless you could conclusively demonstrate otherwhise?


And given that a child takes nearly two years to develop enough self-awareness to recognize itself in a mirror, is there any reason to believe that, before then, they have the slightest thought regarding a power higher than their parents?


And that further begs the question; if a child was born with a belief in a deity, then which deity? The same as the parents? Is there a genetic component to religious affiliation now? Could it be used to prove infidelity? "I'm a Catholic, but this child is clearly a Pentacostal?"


Given the shortage of mind reading, a conclusive answer might be tricky to secure. But given what we do know, both about religion and about early development in children, is there any reason whatsoever to entertain the notion that they do, other than wishful thinking?


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shlaifu
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06 Apr 2017, 3:24 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Would you be comfortable in a court of law that assumed a positive claim made about you to be true unless you could conclusively demonstrate otherwhise?


And given that a child takes nearly two years to develop enough self-awareness to recognize itself in a mirror, is there any reason to believe that, before then, they have the slightest thought regarding a power higher than their parents?


And that further begs the question; if a child was born with a belief in a deity, then which deity? The same as the parents? Is there a genetic component to religious affiliation now? Could it be used to prove infidelity? "I'm a Catholic, but this child is clearly a Pentacostal?"


Given the shortage of mind reading, a conclusive answer might be tricky to secure. But given what we do know, both about religion and about early development in children, is there any reason whatsoever to entertain the notion that they do, other than wishful thinking?



well. Children certainly are not born religious- they are born half-blind, with a jumbled synaesthetic mess for brains. Human children are not born fully developed and so on.
But the reason I, devout atheist, actually do look down a bit religions is that they tend to explain the world in terms a child can grasp. There's a daddy up in the sky who looks down and punishes you if you're naughty.

And from this childish explanation of the world come dogmatic rules about my daily behaviour, which work for a bronze age civilization but are just not applicable today without serious distortion.

Atheism however is associated with analytical thinking and the values of enlightenment.
I don't think, really, that religious people are stupid.
I think they are medieval.


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The_Walrus
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06 Apr 2017, 4:42 pm

I don't think believing in something that's obviously not true necessarily makes you less intelligent. There are all sorts of reasons why people believe things that are obviously irrational, and a lack of intelligence is just one of them. Even the most intelligent people believe things which are obviously irrational.



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07 Apr 2017, 1:23 am

A momentary glance at people like sir Isaac Newton will certainly confirm that. Though, paraphrasing the Hitch; they wouldn't be remembered if that's what they were remembered for.


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Farunel
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07 Apr 2017, 2:05 am

Yo El wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Because children aren't born theists and have to be taught out of it.
You have nothing to back that claim up.


I don't have anything rock solid, but am able to recall things from when I was around 2. My mother was raised roman catholic, and decided to raise all 3 of her daughters without teaching us about deities or religions. I do not recall ever believing in a higher power. Both of my other 2 sisters ended up atheists as well. My mother is now agnostic.

I didn't start calling myself an atheist until I was around 8. I didn't really understand what religion was. It wasn't for lacking a grasp on abstract things, either. I taught myself to read around the age of 3, and was reading encyclopedias by the age of 5 or so.

Again, I expect you to dismiss this as being proof, considering I was just a child, and it is only from word of mouth. I just figured I would contribute this for thoughts.



adifferentname
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07 Apr 2017, 9:14 am

Yo El wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Because children aren't born theists and have to be taught out of it.
You have nothing to back that claim up.


Theists are defined by their adherence to doctrine. If children are born theists, why would Sunday School be a thing? Unless you're arguing for divine revelation in utero?

If the opposite were true, there would necessarily need to be a genetic component to belief in order to explain why different children grow up believing in the gods of their parents rather than a different one. Darwinian Theism Theory anyone?



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07 Apr 2017, 10:39 am

adifferentname wrote:
Yo El wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Because children aren't born theists and have to be taught out of it.
You have nothing to back that claim up.


Theists are defined by their adherence to doctrine. If children are born theists, why would Sunday School be a thing? Unless you're arguing for divine revelation in utero?

If the opposite were true, there would necessarily need to be a genetic component to belief in order to explain why different children grow up believing in the gods of their parents rather than a different one. Darwinian Theism Theory anyone?
Did I say they were?



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07 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

I live with a christian who doesn't fully follow the christian faith because doesn't go to church but uses online/tv documentaries (Revelation TV) as an alternative, if i were christian I suppose i would avoid churches because he also would avoid churches because of the social inclusiveness. I suppose they would denounce my autism as a curse and 'cleanse' me of it through baptism, maybe i would be the better person if that were the case but I lived most of my childhood conditioned through atheism, even though I rarely cursed or used the name of God in the presence of my family. I don't believe in sex after marriage but at the same time I have the state of mind that accepts that one must be pure and unspoiled and not to engage in lustful acts before they meet the one they are destined to be in love with for the rest of their lives - even if I don't plan on being with anyone or having children.

As i've been writing I realised i avoided the question, I consider them less intelligent if they straight away dismiss my thoughts on e.g. evolution, things that have a scientific and logical explanation, afterlife; or if they don't take the time to listen on my theory and continue on the path of ignorance bearing in mind they are pensioners so that should be expected in old age.



Yo El
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07 Apr 2017, 10:56 am

Scorpius14 wrote:
I live with a christian who doesn't fully follow the christian faith because doesn't go to church but uses online/tv documentaries (Revelation TV) as an alternative, if i were christian I suppose i would avoid churches because he also would avoid churches because of the social inclusiveness. I suppose they would denounce my autism as a curse and 'cleanse' me of it through baptism, maybe i would be the better person if that were the case but I lived most of my childhood conditioned through atheism, even though I rarely cursed or used the name of God in the presence of my family. I don't believe in sex after marriage but at the same time I have the state of mind that accepts that one must be pure and unspoiled and not to engage in lustful acts before they meet the one they are destined to be in love with for the rest of their lives - even if I don't plan on being with anyone or having children.

As i've been writing I realised i avoided the question, I consider them less intelligent if they straight away dismiss my thoughts on e.g. evolution, things that have a scientific and logical explanation, afterlife; or if they don't take the time to listen on my theory and continue on the path of ignorance bearing in mind they are pensioners so that should be expected in old age.
I don't think autism necessarily is a curse. And to use baptism for 'cleansing' something like autism would be a very improper use of baptism. Autism makes the world more diverse and it would be a little less interesting without it.



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07 Apr 2017, 11:30 am

Yo El wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Yo El wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Because children aren't born theists and have to be taught out of it.
You have nothing to back that claim up.


Theists are defined by their adherence to doctrine. If children are born theists, why would Sunday School be a thing? Unless you're arguing for divine revelation in utero?

If the opposite were true, there would necessarily need to be a genetic component to belief in order to explain why different children grow up believing in the gods of their parents rather than a different one. Darwinian Theism Theory anyone?
Did I say they were?


Did you say they were what?



kitesandtrainsandcats
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07 Apr 2017, 1:09 pm

A bit of a tangent yet relevant is when discussing theism versus atheism and whether there is any kind of god of the infinite eternal variety a question sometimes is asked about who designed the designer. Asking which self-existing first cause created that other self-existing first cause seems odd.


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07 Apr 2017, 2:48 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
A bit of a tangent yet relevant is when discussing theism versus atheism and whether there is any kind of god of the infinite eternal variety a question sometimes is asked about who designed the designer. Asking which self-existing first cause created that other self-existing first cause seems odd.


Either way, it's based on a limited understanding of causality from the perspective of a mortal being who is bound by whatever 'rules' govern time and space (and who can't actually demonstrate whether or not time is a straight line) within the boundaries of this universe. We don't know what exists/existed outside/prior to our universe, can only speculate on what limitations there are (if any) and may plausibly be incapable of ever finding out.

There's also no reason to rule out the universe as being its own "first cause", which renders the "designer" unnecessary. Nor is there plausible evidence for the existence of such a "designer", including the popular "fine-tuning" argument, wherein said "designer" laboriously constructed an entire, mostly hostile universe to house a single planet full of his children.

This is why you don't open tangential doors! Some of us simply cannot resist stepping through them! :lol: