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Do you know that the God of the Bible doesn't exist?

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Do you know that the God of the Bible doesn't exist?
Yes 47%  47%  [ 47 ]
No 53%  53%  [ 52 ]
Total votes : 99

calandale
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23 Jul 2007, 8:34 pm

jdbob wrote:
You can't prove something doesn't exist but I would say that the probability of the god of the bable existing is extremely low. So low I can't see wasting my time considering it.


Probabilities make little sense,
when they must be based upon
some faith though. And, given
that, why should one faith be
more likely than any other?

Gods, I love this place. There are
VERY few places where such nihilism
is not just denied, as a knee jerk
reaction.



Deus_ex_machina
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24 Jul 2007, 8:42 am

Sounds to me like you're just trying to start an argument so you can try to prove some people wrong.


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Sylvius
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24 Jul 2007, 1:04 pm

calandale wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
I'm the closest thing to the ideal rational agent I've ever found. I hold opinions only when I have reason to hold those opinions.


And what reason better than faith?
Seriously, one bases EVERYTHING
that they know on what amounts to
faith. Even one's own existence cannot
be proven, merely argued from faith
that it CANNOT be otherwise.

But faith isn't a good enough reason. Why abandon your default position of uncertainty?



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24 Jul 2007, 1:24 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
You're missing it..... God is capable of making someone know He's there.

Why do you trust this "knowledge" if you can't explain to yourself how it came to exist?

Why do you trust the knowledge that you'll be able to open your eyes tomorrow morning, when you don't remember exactly where and when you obtained that knowledge? That's as silly a question as yours, and along the same lines.

But, you see, I don't trust that knowledge. I'm content to be uncertain on that point.

That's the difference. I'm happy to admit that I don't understand some things in the universe, but you invent a supernatural explanation even when you don't need one.
Ragtime wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
How do you know your brain isn't simply misfiring?

How can I be sure yours isn't? :wink:

You can't. That's my point.
Ragtime wrote:
From an early age, I knew that God was with me -- a real, all-knowing, and very quiet being, who loved me.

How do you know you're not just delusional? Schizophrenics have very similar experiences with people they just know are there, but no one else can see them.
Ragtime wrote:
How would you know if I showed it to myself?

You could do it out loud. Write down how you would explain to yourself how you know that god exists.
Ragtime wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
How do you know? If you can explain that, then we'll have some sort of appropriate starting point.

Mmmm...no we wouldn't, really. The starting point would be the ending point, because you wouldn't have any new evidence.

But we would. While we wouldn't have your actual experiences, we would have your description of those experiences and your reasoning as to how those experiences convinced you of god's existence.
Ragtime wrote:
Alright then, now we're getting somewhere. You said you don't want to reach God, and see no benefit in it -- so why all the questions?

I'm trying to understand how other people have faith, because the entire concept of faith strikes me as irrational. Either I'm wrong, or everyone with faith is irrational.
Ragtime wrote:
You're not sincerely seeking Him, so in fact you're guarunteed to not find Him!

I'm not trying to find him. I'm trying to understand how other people find him.
Ragtime wrote:
He is a God who rewards those who say essentially: "I don't see, but I want to", not those who falsely say: "I see! There is no God."

As it happens, I'm not doing either. I'm more of a "I don't see; how do you?" But you're unwilling to tell me.



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24 Jul 2007, 1:28 pm

Deus_ex_machina wrote:
Sounds to me like you're just trying to start an argument so you can try to prove some people wrong.


It's a discussion in which there's no proof on either side, and I think it's pretty much over anyway.


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Ragtime
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24 Jul 2007, 1:29 pm

Sylvius wrote:
calandale wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
I'm the closest thing to the ideal rational agent I've ever found. I hold opinions only when I have reason to hold those opinions.


And what reason better than faith?
Seriously, one bases EVERYTHING
that they know on what amounts to
faith. Even one's own existence cannot
be proven, merely argued from faith
that it CANNOT be otherwise.

But faith isn't a good enough reason. Why abandon your default position of uncertainty?


Because uncertainty is itself an absence of position. There's nothing to abandon!


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Ragtime
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24 Jul 2007, 1:33 pm

Sylvius wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
You're missing it..... God is capable of making someone know He's there.

Why do you trust this "knowledge" if you can't explain to yourself how it came to exist?

Why do you trust the knowledge that you'll be able to open your eyes tomorrow morning, when you don't remember exactly where and when you obtained that knowledge? That's as silly a question as yours, and along the same lines.

But, you see, I don't trust that knowledge. I'm content to be uncertain on that point.

Then you can hardly be certain of anything else, FTW.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 24 Jul 2007, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

calandale
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24 Jul 2007, 1:51 pm

Sylvius wrote:
But faith isn't a good enough reason. Why abandon your default position of uncertainty?


You sound like me.
I seemed to remember that
you tended to take some
stances which required faith
(not like I don't - so they
can be excused I suppose),
without disclaiming them.

So, you have no stance on your existence?



Sylvius
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31 Jul 2007, 6:12 pm

calandale wrote:
So, you have no stance on your existence?

Yes. I admit I don't know for sure if I exist.



Ragtime
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31 Jul 2007, 6:24 pm

Sylvius wrote:
calandale wrote:
So, you have no stance on your existence?

Yes. I admit I don't know for sure if I exist.


I don't know if I can take seriously a person who may not exist. If, however, you discover one day that you do exist, and that this conversation is really occuring, let me know, and I will then give your questions consideration. What would people think of me, being one who exists, if I had a discussion with an unperson?



calandale
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31 Jul 2007, 8:04 pm

Ragtime wrote:
...me, being one who exists...


Proof please?



Ragtime
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31 Jul 2007, 9:47 pm

calandale wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
...me, being one who exists...


Proof please?


Who goes there, person or unperson? And why should my existence need proof? It is its own proof, as far as proof can reach, so why would extra proof be needed? 100% is enough proof for me. And if you're an unperson, or possibly so, proof would be wasted upon you.



calandale
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31 Jul 2007, 10:23 pm

Ragtime wrote:
calandale wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
...me, being one who exists...


Proof please?


Who goes there, person or unperson? And why should my existence need proof? It is its own proof, as far as proof can reach, so why would extra proof be needed? 100% is enough proof for me. And if you're an unperson, or possibly so, proof would be wasted upon you.


If a pink elephant came, and spoke to
me, I'd guess that I'm hallucinating. Now,
you seem even less real to me than such
a thing (although I believe you are more
likely). Still, it doesn't seem unreasonable
that, since you are so certain, I demand that
you supply me with a REASON. Asking me
why you need one isn't sufficient.

Ah, I'm sleepy.



Ragtime
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31 Jul 2007, 10:42 pm

calandale wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
calandale wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
...me, being one who exists...


Proof please?


Who goes there, person or unperson? And why should my existence need proof? It is its own proof, as far as proof can reach, so why would extra proof be needed? 100% is enough proof for me. And if you're an unperson, or possibly so, proof would be wasted upon you.


If a pink elephant came, and spoke to
me, I'd guess that I'm hallucinating. Now,
you seem even less real to me than such
a thing (although I believe you are more
likely). Still, it doesn't seem unreasonable
that, since you are so certain, I demand that
you supply me with a REASON. Asking me
why you need one isn't sufficient.

Ah, I'm sleepy.


You haven't even claimed your own existence... I don't answer phantoms. (Or pink elephants.) :P



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01 Aug 2007, 11:14 pm

As I am currently not omniscient, I voted 'no'. I do not know for sure that the god of the Bible does not exist.

However, I consider its existence extremely unlikely.



Ragtime
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02 Aug 2007, 8:57 am

Astreja wrote:
As I am currently not omniscient, I voted 'no'. I do not know for sure that the god of the Bible does not exist.

However, I consider its existence extremely unlikely.


Many on WP consider their own existence unlikely. God could then be no less existent then they themselves.


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