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Hollywood_Guy
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09 Dec 2017, 5:13 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
foxxi wrote:
LegoMaster2149 wrote:
foxxi wrote:
LegoMaster2149 wrote:
I think one of the things that would help society if the media would stop making magazines and stuff like that with photoshopped bodies of women, because girls who try to look like these women, will never be able to do so, since it was digitally altered. Another change in society I wish could happen is a reduction of sexualizing women in media, and to let women be able to make more commercials, films, etc., since almost all of the commercials, films, TV shows are produced/created by men, that way that women can show people that these reinforced myths, stereotypes, etc. of women are not really true. Even though that may take awhile to happen, I certainly hope that this will occur in my lifetime, that way I can at least feel optimistic that some of the problems that the matriarchal society had are gone.

-LegoMaster2149 (Written on November 28, 2017)


It's natural to sexualize both men and women, we are sexual creatures.
And yes, I don't like the whole Photoshop thing, but what about the men who are photoshopped and how we are all expected to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger.


That too, I completely forgot about that.


Well, at least you're not a man hating feminist like, sadly, so many are.


You might be well-served to interact with actual feminists instead of just straw-feminists.


It seems like people are only being sympathetic and pretending by saying "most feminists aren't like that".

If most feminists aren't like what you say they aren't, then why is the BS coming from them in today's culture so more mainstreamed?



adifferentname
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09 Dec 2017, 9:34 pm

TheAP wrote:
There are other ways you can fight for equality without needing to change laws. For example, raising awareness about social issues to change people's attitudes towards them and stand up against them.


Raising awareness with the express goal of favouring or opposing one group or another (or worse, one group over another) isn't fighting for equality, it's fighting for preferential treatment based on arbitrary characteristics.

Equality before the law, which includes equality of opportunity (but doesn't guarantee outcomes) is as far as it's possible to go without creating de facto oppression based on immutable characteristics.

The ground between liberalism and socialism is somewhat blurry, but there are some clear lines over which one should not step.



TheAP
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09 Dec 2017, 9:37 pm

I'm not talking about favouring one group over another, I'm talking about trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny).



adifferentname
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09 Dec 2017, 9:40 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
It seems like people are only being sympathetic and pretending by saying "most feminists aren't like that".

If most feminists aren't like what you say they aren't, then why is the BS coming from them in today's culture so more mainstreamed?


I've said it before, and it seems I'm doomed to repeat it:

If feminists want to excommunicate members they need to appoint a Femipope. Until that happens, all Scotsmen are true - especially those whose views run parallel to what we see in the mainstream.



adifferentname
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09 Dec 2017, 9:42 pm

TheAP wrote:
I'm not talking about favouring one group over another, I'm talking about trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny).


Which is favouring a specific group over an individual's right to hold women in contempt.

You're advocating thought policing for no appreciable gain, and for the right to not be offended.



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09 Dec 2017, 9:48 pm

How is raising awareness about social issues thought-policing? All it is, is encouraging people to do or not to do certain things in order to make the world a better place. It doesn't mean forcing them to do anything.



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09 Dec 2017, 10:07 pm

My biggest gripe with feminism is that it doesn't fight for true equality. All it cares about is getting women from the middle class up in positions of which there are extremely few to begin with, and to make it worse they want those positions not by outcompeting the men, but discriminating by law. To make it even even worse, we also need to mention the vast majority of people who are truly at the bottom of society, are almost all men, yet feminists couldn't possibly care less about them. There is no group of people for whom there is less sympathy, than the men who are barely clinging on to the edge of existence. Men don't have much sympathy for them, and women have as far as I can tell virtually none.



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09 Dec 2017, 10:09 pm

TheAP wrote:
How is raising awareness about social issues thought-policing? All it is, is encouraging people to do or not to do certain things in order to make the world a better place. It doesn't mean forcing them to do anything.


Lo did the goalposts shift.

You defined raising awareness as "trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny)".

Misogyny is a dislike of, contempt for or prejudice against women - i.e. it's exists within an individual's mind, no matter that it may or may not manifest as behaviour. And let's not get started on the obscene number of items, practices, ideas, etc that get filed under misogyny by feminists, without ever clarifying whether or not the alleged perpetrator, creator, etc actually dislikes women, and often coming into conflict with other feminists over whether or not something is actually misogynistic (topless page 3 models, for example).

Let us also remember that many actual misogynists report their dislike or mistrust of women is due to the actions (often abusive) of individual women - former partners, mothers, etc - and who live in a world where the phrase "toxic masculinity" is a commonly expressed feminist catechism.

Rather than trying to fight a nebulous and open-ended "negative aspect", why not simply advocate everyone follow the Golden Rule?



Closet Genious
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09 Dec 2017, 10:14 pm

adifferentname wrote:
TheAP wrote:
How is raising awareness about social issues thought-policing? All it is, is encouraging people to do or not to do certain things in order to make the world a better place. It doesn't mean forcing them to do anything.


Lo did the goalposts shift.

You defined raising awareness as "trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny)".

Misogyny is a dislike of, contempt for or prejudice against women - i.e. it's exists within an individual's mind, no matter that it may or may not manifest as behaviour. And let's not get started on the obscene number of items, practices, ideas, etc that get filed under misogyny by feminists, without ever clarifying whether or not the alleged perpetrator, creator, etc actually dislikes women, and often coming into conflict with other feminists over whether or not something is actually misogynistic (topless page 3 models, for example).

Let us also remember that many actual misogynists report their dislike or mistrust of women is due to the actions (often abusive) of individual women - former partners, mothers, etc - and who live in a world where the phrase "toxic masculinity" is a commonly expressed feminist catechism.

Rather than trying to fight a nebulous and open-ended "negative aspect", why not simply advocate everyone follow the Golden Rule?


If anything, "raising awareness about misogony" will probably just create more misogony.



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09 Dec 2017, 10:25 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
If anything, "raising awareness about misogony" will probably just create more misogony.


Precisely.



funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2017, 1:51 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
If most feminists aren't like what you say they aren't, then why is the BS coming from them in today's culture so more mainstreamed?


You might need to clarify for an adequate response. You mean, why is society starting to take sexual assault and harassment more seriously? Or do you mean something else?


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funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2017, 1:52 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
If anything, "raising awareness about misogony" will probably just create more misogony.


Will the misogynists be triggered?


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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


TheAP
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10 Dec 2017, 2:30 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Lo did the goalposts shift.

You defined raising awareness as "trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny)".

No, they didn't. And that wasn't a definition, that's the purpose of raising awareness.
Quote:
Misogyny is a dislike of, contempt for or prejudice against women - i.e. it's exists within an individual's mind, no matter that it may or may not manifest as behaviour. And let's not get started on the obscene number of items, practices, ideas, etc that get filed under misogyny by feminists, without ever clarifying whether or not the alleged perpetrator, creator, etc actually dislikes women, and often coming into conflict with other feminists over whether or not something is actually misogynistic (topless page 3 models, for example).

The term misogyny is not always literal. It can also include objectifying, dehumanizing and stereotyping women.
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Rather than trying to fight a nebulous and open-ended "negative aspect", why not simply advocate everyone follow the Golden Rule?

And that would be less nebulous and open-ended? Everyone knows they're supposed to follow the Golden Rule, but people still treat each other selfishly. It's better to point out specific ways people can help make a difference.
Closet Genious wrote:
If anything, "raising awareness about misogony" will probably just create more misogony.

So we should just let misogynists be misogynists and do nothing about it?



Closet Genious
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10 Dec 2017, 4:23 pm

The men who are already good will get annoyed over time by being thrown into the same category.
And the men who truly hate women you are never going to change, especially not by pointing fingers at them.

In my honest opinion, if feminists want a realistic shot at decreasing misogony in society, the only way is by showing more compassion towards men in general. But I know feminists won't do that, because to them, being outraged and having someone to blame, is much more important than actually solving problems.

Trust me, name calling and finger pointing will only succed in creating more misogony.



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10 Dec 2017, 4:39 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
The men who are already good will get annoyed over time by being thrown into the same category.

No one here is suggesting that all men should be lumped into the same category.
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And the men who truly hate women you are never going to change, especially not by pointing fingers at them.

Maybe they can be changed, maybe not. But it's equally important to encourage good men to stand up against misogyny.
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In my honest opinion, if feminists want a realistic shot at decreasing misogony in society, the only way is by showing more compassion towards men in general. But I know feminists won't do that, because to them, being outraged and having someone to blame, is much more important than actually solving problems.

Trust me, name calling and finger pointing will only succed in creating more misogony.

Don't generalize all feminists. Not all are hateful towards men, and many do try to make changes. Some men may be able to be taught with compassion and education. But others, like sexual harassers, it's just better to avoid.



Closet Genious
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10 Dec 2017, 4:53 pm

TheAP wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
The men who are already good will get annoyed over time by being thrown into the same category.

No one here is suggesting that all men should be lumped into the same category.
Quote:
And the men who truly hate women you are never going to change, especially not by pointing fingers at them.

Maybe they can be changed, maybe not. But it's equally important to encourage good men to stand up against misogyny.
Quote:
In my honest opinion, if feminists want a realistic shot at decreasing misogony in society, the only way is by showing more compassion towards men in general. But I know feminists won't do that, because to them, being outraged and having someone to blame, is much more important than actually solving problems.

Trust me, name calling and finger pointing will only succed in creating more misogony.

Don't generalize all feminists. Not all are hateful towards men, and many do try to make changes. Some men may be able to be taught with compassion and education. But others, like sexual harassers, it's just better to avoid.


I've been watching the feminist movement in my country, quite closely, for the past 5 years. I have not seen much compassion, if any at all, towards men.

It should also be mentioned, that since the feminist movement tend to subscribe to post modern ideas, they view every issue as a group vs group issue. For example: white men are priviledged, which is just straight up non sensical. Almost no movement is more guilty of generalizing all the time, than modern feminism.