What's wrong with civic nationalism ?

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Yes, God bless America. Nobody on this forum, and few in the country, has a problem with that.
As for why Jefferson fought the Barbary pirates - it was because they had taken a number of American sailors captive. Forgive me as my memory is a bit fuzzy about that incident, but I believe it had been settled by negotiations. That was when the US government told the Muslim captors that America was not a country based on religion. We are a country with a great many Christians, and thus our morals and values are of the Christian persuasion, but that hardly means that our country can't also be for Muslims, Jews, or scarecrow worshipers.
And just what sort of Christianity? I get the impression that the kind you're referring to is the kind that predominates in your part of the country, namely evangelicals, fundamentalists, and Pentecostals. I happen to know that that sort of theology has little tolerance for my faith, which is Lutheran, or for other mainline Protestants, let alone Catholics.

The US spends more on industrialized murder than the next 12 largest militaries combined, and has been at war for 222 out of the 234 years it's existed. US special forces are currently operating in 137 of the planet’s 194 countries. Since the end of WW II, America has killed more than 20,000,000 people in 37 countries, none of which by any stretch of the imagination represented an existential threat to the United States. Over 90% of the casualties of modern warfare are civilians.

"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
Thomas Paine

f**k nationalism.

The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that America isn't a Christian nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli



Are you implying that all Muslims are pirates?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Overall, it's pretty clear that the founding fathers of America wanted a country in which people of all religions (or no religion) can live together in peace.

The state is not Christian, the nation certainly was at the time.

... but the state would have to become Christian in order to prevent religious demographic changes.

That would be unconstitutional.

I think you are forgetting something
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Therefore it is not a Christian nation...if you want a theocracy you should probably convert to Islam and go join up with ISIS, as that is their goal.

Here are some charts that fundies should look at.

America
VVV


Haiti
VVV


Malta
VVV


Armenia
VVV


Think America isn't religious enough? Go somewhere else.

More likely Americanization of Germany has mostly come from having so many American GI's there starting at the end of WWII and throughout the cold war era and beyond.

hello? yes i would like to order one source please!

Speaking of Barbary pirates; the treaty of Tripoli.



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Treaty_of_Tripoli_as_communicated_to_Congress_1797.png

... and let's not forget that the Ottoman Empire was a very civilized place.



It's really hard to talk to American conservatives about Islam, since they seem to know nothing about Islam.

Conservative: I'm a conservative. I prefer traditional women and I think that being gay is a sin.
Me: Plenty of Muslims are conservative also.
Conservative: Muslims want to kill anyone who disagrees with them. That's not Christian.
Me: Albania is a Muslim majority country. They aren't as extreme as Middle Eastern Muslims. Many Albanian Muslims are essentially identical to American Christian conservatives in terms of lifestyle. Many Kazakh Muslims are like this too. The Maldives are also like this. I could go on like this all day if you want.
Conservative: Well ... I hope they speak Albanian in Hell.

This seems to be one of the bigger problems with the world. In nearly every country, you can find pious, patriotic conservatives. They all consider themselves to be unique even though most of them are the same. If Rvacountrysinger learned Kazakh and spoke to a typical Kazakh Muslim, they would agree on almost every issue.

Jefferson considered himself an Epicurean at at least one point:
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html

and owned 7 copies of Lucretius' "on the nature of things", a de facto atheist poem from the 1st century BC, which said the world was made of atoms, void, and nothing else. no immortal soul. ... the poem also describes evolution, which is really amazing. Giordano Bruno was burned on the stake for taking it seriously.

<sarcasm> yes, but that was before I was born. I'm complaining about changes to the culture I was born into that are happening NOW </sarcasm>

You can be a Christian nation without being a theocracy.

We are not a Christian nation.

I am a Jew, whether you like it or not.

It depends on the time period and the way you see human groupings. To call America a "Christian nation" certainly doesn't apply today. The Modern United States of America, the political entity is a multi-ethnic multi-national multi-religious state or empire by necessity and that's just within its official borders on the American continent, to say nothing of its economic/military psuedo-empire that touches most parts of the globe. America at its founding certainly was a Christian nation, ruled by a carefully crafted, explicitly secular state, the original American nation-state. Even now though it would be perfectly reasonable to say the state is (somewhat?) Christian in nature if not letter, being as so many of its laws had origins in English law and Christian thinking, though that is becoming less true as politics and lawmaking catch up with changing demographics.



I don't think that is necessarily true. Secular states do not have to be stupid about demographics or blind to human nature. I can imagine a perfectly reasonable secular state deciding that changing the demographics of their land into something resembling Lebanon is not a good idea.

Last edited by Mikah on 14 Jan 2018, 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.