What if race wasn't fictional?

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Mudboy
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12 Mar 2018, 12:35 am

Mudboy wrote:

Do any of these hominins still exist in the world? Bigfoot, Yeti, Leprechauns, Trolls?

Gnomes, Goblins, Selkies, Ogres?

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Mikah
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12 Mar 2018, 1:12 am

Gromit wrote:

Mikah wrote:

You cannot say there is no meaningful biological difference between human ethnic groups (scientists are very careful not to say this) or proclaim every ethnic group has the same talents and abilities.

How do you get from meaningful biological difference to talents and abilities? Meaningful biological differences I know are things like increased prevalence of sickle cell anaemia in some populations exposed to malaria because being heterozygous for that variant of the hemoglobin gene confers resistance.

You do know that the original question was a hypothetical world in which there could be no dispute about differences existing? You promptly turn it into a dispute about difference in this world. Why?

I don't think you read my post properly, it is others, DMK in particular, who have made the leap based on the statements of geneticists. "Race is not useful to a geneticists" =/= "All races & ethnic groups are the same". It's a misleading statement, which has misled those who want to be misled.

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Mudboy
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12 Mar 2018, 1:32 am

Pepe wrote:

Chronos wrote:

I noted that they interbred with us.

Not with me!...
I'm not that desperate... :mrgreen:

You might not be, but they could have stolen wives from humans... :yuck:

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Wolfram87
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12 Mar 2018, 2:52 am

If there was interbreeding, it's rather safe to assume that the label "human" describes everyone involved.

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Mudboy
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12 Mar 2018, 3:38 am

Lions and tigers are felines, they are not the same species, yet they have offspring. Horses and donkeys are equine, and they are different species that can breed. Humans and Neanderthals are hominims but not the same species. Human is a subset type of homimin.

Science shows Neanderthals were not human. Their DNA indicates they were a different species of hominim. The other hominims referenced were also not human, their DNA was simply close enough to successfully interbreed with humans. DNA shows this interbreeding of different hominim races is part of what created different human ethnicities.

Descriptions of Neanderthals are very similar to descriptions of Scandinavian trolls. People still claim to see trolls there, so it is possible Neanderthals and other mythical hominims are not actually extinct. Mythology can often be backed up by science.

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Last edited by Mudboy on 12 Mar 2018, 3:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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12 Mar 2018, 3:45 am

Mudboy wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

The Neanderthals and Denisovans are simply a subpopulation of Homo Sapiens separated by 100.000 yrs otherwise they would not be able to breed and produce the current population of Homo sapiens in Asia, America and Europe

Using DNA, Africans are pure homo sapiens. Europeans are interbred with Neanderthal. Basque people are interbred with another unidentified DNA source. Chinese are interbred with another dissimilar hominid. Okinawans interbred with yet another. There are more hominims than that (Australia, Caucuses, Java, etc.). The skeletons of these hominids contained no DNA from Homo sapiens. DNA results from human origins studies reveal updated results every year. Humans are one species, but not one breed.
Do any of these hominins still exist in the world? Bigfoot, Yeti, Leprechauns, Trolls?

Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals probably interbred in Middle East. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/01/ ... iddle-east

The_Face_of_Boo
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12 Mar 2018, 3:52 am

Mudboy wrote:

Mules can't reproduce though, and male ligers can't if I recall right. Neanderthals have the same # of chromosomes than Homo Sapiens though - the better comparison would be wolves and dogs: Two very close species.

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12 Mar 2018, 3:57 am

Mudboy wrote:

Do any of these hominins still exist in the world? Bigfoot, Yeti, Leprechauns, Trolls?

Gnomes, Goblins, Selkies, Ogres?

Tasmanians?

Mudboy wrote:

Humans and horses producing centaurs...

Wolfram87
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12 Mar 2018, 5:15 am

Mudboy wrote:

As a Scandinavian, I can tell you that "troll" can basically refer to anything with magic or mystical properties, be it creature or object: "trollstav" (magic wand), "trolltrumma" (magic drum), "trollkarl" (wizard). When used generically, it can refer to any number of generic magical fiendery. And who is it that claims to see trolls?

And yes, neanderthals and modern humans aren't the same species of great ape, but we are both labeled "homo", which is the human tribe. Hence your statement that neanderthals weren't human is incorrect.

As for your point about the Panthera-cats: they generally produce infertile hybrid offspring, with females sometimes being fertile. If they lived in geographical proximity in the wild, it might happen often enough that, millions of years down the line, their respective genomes might carry traces of it. Or one of them might be extinct and the other might live on with traces of the interbreeding sporadically appearing. But I think your idea that human ethnicities are directly linked to interbreeding of three distinct species of human is well into "dubious" territory.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

the better comparison would be wolves and dogs: Two very close species.

The same species, actually. Millenia of domestication between them, though, so domestic dogs are usually termed Canis Lupus Familiaris.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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12 Mar 2018, 5:30 am

^^ It's old news -No, the latest studies show they are two species, but very closely related.

Wolfram87
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12 Mar 2018, 5:35 am

*looks into*

Ah, my bad then. I'm pretty sure modern wolf/dog hybrids are still fertile, though?

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Daniel89
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12 Mar 2018, 5:41 am

Mudboy wrote:

Neanderthals were human just another species of human. Polar bears and Brown bears can and do reproduce their offspring are still fertile and suffer no defects.

cyberdad
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13 Mar 2018, 3:11 am

Mudboy wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I assume you know the variety of dogs range in the thousands but they are all the same species. Hominid variation might just be selective pressures giving rise to unusual subpopulation phenotypes

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13 Mar 2018, 6:04 am

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Neanderthals were human just another species of human. Polar bears and Brown bears can and do reproduce their offspring are still fertile and suffer no defects.

Neanderthals Not Human
The study found that the differences measured between humans and Neanderthals were significantly greater than those found between subspecies of any single group, indicating Neanderthals were not a subspecies if humans. In addition, the difference was as great or greater than that found between closely related primate species, such as humans, gorillas and chimpanzees.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neanderthals-not-human-ancestors/

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Daniel89
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13 Mar 2018, 6:12 am

Mudboy wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Neanderthals were human just another species of human. Polar bears and Brown bears can and do reproduce their offspring are still fertile and suffer no defects.

You seem to be implying we are more closely related to Gorillas than Neanderthals? We interbred with them they were absolutely Human.

Mudboy
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13 Mar 2018, 6:40 am

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Neanderthals were human just another species of human. Polar bears and Brown bears can and do reproduce their offspring are still fertile and suffer no defects.

You seem to be implying we are more closely related to Gorillas than Neanderthals? We interbred with them they were absolutely Human.

Why are you twisting published science into aberrant fiction? Are you a competing anthropologist with an alternate study? Can you show me where your study is published?

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