Would you rather live in a Communist or a Fascist Empire

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Prometheus18
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04 Jan 2019, 6:30 pm

Bertrand Russell called them "Sylla and Charybdis", and I think he was absolutely right. I also agree, with him, that communism is marginally preferable, in that it's at least nominally based on the common good; but I despise both.



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04 Jan 2019, 8:51 pm

I would welcome death. I'd turn myself in as a traitor and allow myself to be executed. :skull:



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05 Jan 2019, 10:31 am

I want to point out that Communist vs. Fascist may not be a fair comparison.

Communism is a formal philosophy of government and has inspired the formation of political parties across the globe. Many people have sought power in the name of Communism, and many millions have proudly self-identified as Communists, in fact during the Cold War roughly 50% of Italians did so (disclaimer I am strongly anti-Communist nevertheless what I just wrote is unarguably true).

In contrast, there has only been one bona fide Fascist party in history i.e. Italy in the first half of the 20th century. Apart from that, "Fascist" is primarily a pejorative term used to characterize politicians and governments by their enemies, especially leftists of all stripes.

In particular, "Fascism" has always been the formal term used by Communists to identify whatever it is they happen to be "struggling" against. For example, the government led by Francisco Franco Bahamonde in Spain (1930s - 1970s) is widely spoken of as Fascist, but that is mostly because it came to power by militarily defeating its Communist (and Soviet-supported) opposition. Likewise the government of Augusto Pinochet Ugarte in Chile (1970s - 1980s) was considered Fascist, as it came to power by overthrowing a Communist leader.

I can recall reading some Cold War propaganda (probably Soviet Life) in which some American citizens and Soviet citizens were stopped on the street and asked questions about Fascism. The Americans mostly expressed ignorance of the topic whereas the Soviets all had deeply insightful and far-reaching things to say about it, implying that people raised in the Soviet Union were way more sophisticated politically than Americans, and that Americans OTOH were easy prey for evil Fascists, due to their ignorance.

I will assume the OP probably meant to say "régime" rather than "empire", in which case I would have to say Fascist, because that could be anything at all, possibly including some extremely brutal oligarchy but could conceivably also include the US (where I happen to live) which has been accused more than once of being Fascist.


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Prometheus18
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05 Jan 2019, 10:38 am

Just because nobody, with few exceptions (Mussolini and Oswald Mosley are the first two that spring to mind), has embraced the term "fascist", it doesn't mean that it isn't an organised political philosophy. It is, and Pinochet and Franco were quite clearly adherents of fascism, regardless of the obscurantism of the Bolsheviks in their overuse of the term.



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05 Jan 2019, 11:24 am

Prometheus18 wrote:
Just because nobody, with few exceptions (Mussolini and Oswald Mosley are the first two that spring to mind), has embraced the term "fascist", it doesn't mean that it isn't an organised political philosophy. It is, and Pinochet and Franco were quite clearly adherents of fascism, regardless of the obscurantism of the Bolsheviks in their overuse of the term.
Franco and Pinochet were both dictators and dealt harshly with their opponents, of whom in both cases there were many — in particular most of Pinochet's opponents i.e. supporters of Salvador Allende Gossens never dreamt the régime they formerly supported would fall anytime soon. Fidel Castro of Cuba and Kim Jong Un of North Korea operate(d) similarly. Vladimir Putin of Russia does similarly although he seems especially adept at maintaining his popularity with the masses (Pinochet didn't much give a hot damn about that AFAIK). Does that make all those people Fascists? I should point out, however that Pinochet eventually held a plebiscite and then stepped down when he lost. At the end of his life, Franco restored the Monarchy, which eventually led to a democratic form of government in Spain. I can't imagine any of those other guys, who are usually NOT accused of being Fascists, doing likewise. So if you are so certain the two individuals you identified as Fascists are worthy of the label, then I would have to say that willingness to eventually accede to democracy (after having satisfactorily neutralized one's opposition) might be an identifying characteristic of Fascism. Thus preferable to Communism IMO.


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05 Jan 2019, 11:27 am

MaxE wrote:
I want to point out that Communist vs. Fascist may not be a fair comparison.

Communism is a formal philosophy of government and has inspired the formation of political parties across the globe. Many people have sought power in the name of Communism, and many millions have proudly self-identified as Communists, in fact during the Cold War roughly 50% of Italians did so (disclaimer I am strongly anti-Communist nevertheless what I just wrote is unarguably true).

In contrast, there has only been one bona fide Fascist party in history i.e. Italy in the first half of the 20th century. Apart from that, "Fascist" is primarily a pejorative term used to characterize politicians and governments by their enemies, especially leftists of all stripes.

In particular, "Fascism" has always been the formal term used by Communists to identify whatever it is they happen to be "struggling" against. For example, the government led by Francisco Franco Bahamonde in Spain (1930s - 1970s) is widely spoken of as Fascist, but that is mostly because it came to power by militarily defeating its Communist (and Soviet-supported) opposition. Likewise the government of Augusto Pinochet Ugarte in Chile (1970s - 1980s) was considered Fascist, as it came to power by overthrowing a Communist leader.

I can recall reading some Cold War propaganda (probably Soviet Life) in which some American citizens and Soviet citizens were stopped on the street and asked questions about Fascism. The Americans mostly expressed ignorance of the topic whereas the Soviets all had deeply insightful and far-reaching things to say about it, implying that people raised in the Soviet Union were way more sophisticated politically than Americans, and that Americans OTOH were easy prey for evil Fascists, due to their ignorance.

I will assume the OP probably meant to say "régime" rather than "empire", in which case I would have to say Fascist, because that could be anything at all, possibly including some extremely brutal oligarchy but could conceivably also include the US (where I happen to live) which has been accused more than once of being Fascist.


I think Americans are simply prone to being easily manipulated by their own government because the majority of us aren't very educated about politics. Our government takes full advantage of that. I can't be the only one who has noticed it?

I admit that I'm not very educated about politics either but I am very aware of how things tend to be done in this country.



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05 Jan 2019, 11:39 am

A lot of Americans don't even realize that the Nazis were not communists.



MaxE
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05 Jan 2019, 11:44 am

TW1ZTY wrote:
I think Americans are simply prone to being easily manipulated by their own government because the majority of us aren't very educated about politics. Our government takes full advantage of that. I can't be the only one who has noticed it?

I admit that I'm not very educated about politics either but I am very aware of how things tend to be done in this country.
I believe that's true of people in most countries although some people, especially Canadians, seem less willing to admit it. Of course I consider myself more sophisticated in that regard than most Americans, but I won't try to prove that to anyone.


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05 Jan 2019, 11:53 am

I'd want a quick, (mostly) painless death in any totalitarian regime.


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05 Jan 2019, 12:01 pm

MaxE wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I think Americans are simply prone to being easily manipulated by their own government because the majority of us aren't very educated about politics. Our government takes full advantage of that. I can't be the only one who has noticed it?

I admit that I'm not very educated about politics either but I am very aware of how things tend to be done in this country.
I believe that's true of people in most countries although some people, especially Canadians, seem less willing to admit it. Of course I consider myself more sophisticated in that regard than most Americans, but I won't try to prove that to anyone.


Well I no longer feel like sugar coating it. Americans do atrocious things to other countries and refuse to admit guilt, our progress as a society feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back compared to other places, our superiority complex and ethnocentric attitudes about the rest of the world are annoying as f**k, and Americans are NOT as free as they like to believe they are! Our government actually keeps a pretty tight leash on our people with the social security numbers and other records to track us, rights being denied to certain kinds of people (like homosexuals not being allowed marriage or donating plasma), and being able to hack into personal information on computers and cellphones to "catch criminals and terrorists". We also refuse to seperate religion and state especially in the Bible Belt where I grew up. How exactly is any of that freedom? :roll:



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05 Jan 2019, 12:13 pm

Also I know that other developed countries are just as bad but I was raised under the delusion that Amuuurica was the greatest country because we're so nice to everyone including "evil" countries and we helped the world and everybody loves us and wants to move here blah blah blah.

Yeah, imagine my shock and feelings of shame when I found out about all the bad things that the US continues to do to this day. :(



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05 Jan 2019, 1:12 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
Well I no longer feel like sugar coating it. Americans do atrocious things to other countries and refuse to admit guilt, our progress as a society feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back compared to other places, our superiority complex and ethnocentric attitudes about the rest of the world are annoying as f**k, and Americans are NOT as free as they like to believe they are! Our government actually keeps a pretty tight leash on our people with the social security numbers and other records to track us, rights being denied to certain kinds of people (like homosexuals not being allowed marriage or donating plasma), and being able to hack into personal information on computers and cellphones to "catch criminals and terrorists". We also refuse to seperate religion and state especially in the Bible Belt where I grew up. How exactly is any of that freedom? :roll:
I wouldn't know how to reply to all of that. Janis Joplin said "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". Does that help?


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05 Jan 2019, 1:18 pm

MaxE wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
Well I no longer feel like sugar coating it. Americans do atrocious things to other countries and refuse to admit guilt, our progress as a society feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back compared to other places, our superiority complex and ethnocentric attitudes about the rest of the world are annoying as f**k, and Americans are NOT as free as they like to believe they are! Our government actually keeps a pretty tight leash on our people with the social security numbers and other records to track us, rights being denied to certain kinds of people (like homosexuals not being allowed marriage or donating plasma), and being able to hack into personal information on computers and cellphones to "catch criminals and terrorists". We also refuse to seperate religion and state especially in the Bible Belt where I grew up. How exactly is any of that freedom? :roll:
I wouldn't know how to reply to all of that. Janis Joplin said "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". Does that help?


I actually wrote a poem about how I feel about our society and how we are similar to chickens on a farm living in comfort as we wait to be cooked and eaten by those who control us. :P


viewtopic.php?t=371976

Maybe not the best written poem but I put a lot of emotion into it.



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05 Jan 2019, 1:27 pm

According to some murricans, the country I live in *is* commie. But only because we have "free" health care.



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05 Jan 2019, 1:28 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
I actually wrote a poem about how I feel about our society and how we are similar to chickens on a farm living in comfort as we wait to be cooked and eaten by those who control us. :P


viewtopic.php?t=371976

Maybe not the best written poem but I put a lot of emotion into it.
Good poem. Thanks for sharing!


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Prometheus18
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05 Jan 2019, 1:31 pm

America most certainly doesn't have a free healthcare system. It has an ineffective and corrupt healthcare system designed to enrich pharmaceutical companies and private healthcare providers. The only country in the world with an effective and free healthcare system is the UK, though that's being driven down the toilet (purposely) as well.