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Why the Left Loses elections

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Fnord
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07 Jan 2020, 5:49 pm

Nice stats. Fortunately, I'm an outlier. Having been homeless kinda gave me an appreciation of things like socialized housing, education, and medical care. Having earned what I have now also gave me an appreciation of being a "self-made" person.

The former would have given me a greater and earlier head-start in life, while the latter means that I don't owe anyone anything for my success.

I suppose that if I had received an inheritance, and then used it to dodge The Draft, buy off politicians, and import a trophy wife from some eastern European nation, I would scorn any mention of social welfare, too.


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07 Jan 2020, 6:20 pm

It's the same in the UK. The older you get the more likely you'll vote Conservative .


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The tipping point - the age at which a voter is more likely to have voted Conservative than Labour - is now 39, down from 47 at the last election.


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-election



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07 Jan 2020, 7:55 pm

Antrax wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Surely the electorate should be voting in the national interest, rather than their own?


Economic self interest can mean disposable income coming from a good wage, benefits, and freedom from bankruptcy due to medical care, which in turn will give more buying power to the average person, energizing the economy. Self interest can lead to national interest.


Careful now you're almost sounding like a libertarian there.


Make no mistake; good wages and benefits, as well as affordable healthcare is achievable only when workers are empowered through collective bargaining - and organized labor is not a favorite thing of libertarians - as well as embracing left leaning by national and state government - again, not a favorite of libertarianism.


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07 Jan 2020, 8:27 pm

The 'right' likes individualism . it fits in well with their 'Divide and conquer' tactics .



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07 Jan 2020, 8:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Most people is not all people, your country is punishing the poor for being unable to afford healthcare, my country and every other 1st world country does not have that problem. Why should it be up to the individual for being able to afford being looked after if something bad happened to them? Why do you want to punish children if their parents don't have healthcare either? Why do you think it is better to rely on private insurances that aim to pad their bottom dollar to shareholders, where they are incentivised to try and weasel out paying anything if possible?

The thing is that people like you are so high on the concept that America is the best ever, that you don't realize that it has fallen behind everywhere else in looking after its people.



Children don't get punished. We in Florida have something called Children's Medical Services, it steps in when a family makes too much to qualify for Medicaid, but not enough for insurance. Or when a kid has a complex medical issue like Diabetes, or Cystic Fibrosis. My son was born with a 3rd lung bud (pulmonary sequestration). It showed up as a chest mass on in-utero sonogram. He went to surgery at 7 days old and they removed it. Children's Medical Services paid for the whole thing. So, you're wrong.
Now, if it's just a cold the child has, they will have to pay.
I don't possess any concept that America is the 'best ever.' I do possess a concept that the US is different. Say what you want about Capitalism, but a lot of countries count on our economy to pick up the slack for the entire world's economic short comings. If the US ever were to stop, go on lock down and stop footing the bill for military interests in some of these countries with 'free' so-so healthcare, the world would s**t their collective pants. I think we should do a trial and stop all economic support of any other country and see what they think.


Well, not every state is as enlightened as Florida when it comes to poor children. What about those states run by right wing fundie Baptists who think they don't have any responsibility for caring for poor children? And yes, there are plenty of them.



Do you have a child with diabetes? Or Cystic Fibrosis? Or that needed a $33,000 surgery after birth? They don't advertise that these services exist, but the specialists will refer the family to complete the forms when a child is diagnosed with an expensive, or life threatening illness. They don't refer for well kids though. The kids with the complex medical issues will have well care too though, to keep a regular kid illness from further complicating complex medical issues. Also, they cut my son off from it as soon as he healed from the surgery, he was only eligible for about 6 months. By that time, we were again insured.

There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


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Kraichgauer
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07 Jan 2020, 8:41 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Most people is not all people, your country is punishing the poor for being unable to afford healthcare, my country and every other 1st world country does not have that problem. Why should it be up to the individual for being able to afford being looked after if something bad happened to them? Why do you want to punish children if their parents don't have healthcare either? Why do you think it is better to rely on private insurances that aim to pad their bottom dollar to shareholders, where they are incentivised to try and weasel out paying anything if possible?

The thing is that people like you are so high on the concept that America is the best ever, that you don't realize that it has fallen behind everywhere else in looking after its people.



Children don't get punished. We in Florida have something called Children's Medical Services, it steps in when a family makes too much to qualify for Medicaid, but not enough for insurance. Or when a kid has a complex medical issue like Diabetes, or Cystic Fibrosis. My son was born with a 3rd lung bud (pulmonary sequestration). It showed up as a chest mass on in-utero sonogram. He went to surgery at 7 days old and they removed it. Children's Medical Services paid for the whole thing. So, you're wrong.
Now, if it's just a cold the child has, they will have to pay.
I don't possess any concept that America is the 'best ever.' I do possess a concept that the US is different. Say what you want about Capitalism, but a lot of countries count on our economy to pick up the slack for the entire world's economic short comings. If the US ever were to stop, go on lock down and stop footing the bill for military interests in some of these countries with 'free' so-so healthcare, the world would s**t their collective pants. I think we should do a trial and stop all economic support of any other country and see what they think.


Well, not every state is as enlightened as Florida when it comes to poor children. What about those states run by right wing fundie Baptists who think they don't have any responsibility for caring for poor children? And yes, there are plenty of them.



Do you have a child with diabetes? Or Cystic Fibrosis? Or that needed a $33,000 surgery after birth? They don't advertise that these services exist, but the specialists will refer the family to complete the forms when a child is diagnosed with an expensive, or life threatening illness. They don't refer for well kids though. The kids with the complex medical issues will have well care too though, to keep a regular kid illness from further complicating complex medical issues. Also, they cut my son off from it as soon as he healed from the surgery, he was only eligible for about 6 months. By that time, we were again insured.

There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


I, for one, want all children - and adults - to have medical coverage.


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Bradleigh
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07 Jan 2020, 9:00 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


And the ones not deemed sick enough but need it anyway. Kid breaks their arm but the family lives paycheck to paycheck? And it isn't just kids.

A few weeks ago my brother, an unemployed university student, damaged his ankle, had to take an ambulance to the hospital and had several hospital visits since. Medicare covered it he did not have to empty his bank account and possibly end up in debt, because we do things better than America.

A lot of Americans that are used to how their country works in terms of healthcare, I don't think you realize how dystopian your system is. Medicare for all is not ridiculously left, you have all just bought into the narrative set by the rich to favour a system that caters to the rich. It is like you are still trapped in a system where fire fighters are private and only prioritise the houses of people that pay them.


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07 Jan 2020, 11:02 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


And the ones not deemed sick enough but need it anyway. Kid breaks their arm but the family lives paycheck to paycheck? And it isn't just kids.

A few weeks ago my brother, an unemployed university student, damaged his ankle, had to take an ambulance to the hospital and had several hospital visits since. Medicare covered it he did not have to empty his bank account and possibly end up in debt, because we do things better than America.

A lot of Americans that are used to how their country works in terms of healthcare, I don't think you realize how dystopian your system is. Medicare for all is not ridiculously left, you have all just bought into the narrative set by the rich to favour a system that caters to the rich. It is like you are still trapped in a system where fire fighters are private and only prioritise the houses of people that pay them.



I agree, you do things better. The people who want what you have should live with you, they should not try to make the US into Australia or Canada. Then, the US would not be the US.


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08 Jan 2020, 1:56 am

Persephone29 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


And the ones not deemed sick enough but need it anyway. Kid breaks their arm but the family lives paycheck to paycheck? And it isn't just kids.

A few weeks ago my brother, an unemployed university student, damaged his ankle, had to take an ambulance to the hospital and had several hospital visits since. Medicare covered it he did not have to empty his bank account and possibly end up in debt, because we do things better than America.

A lot of Americans that are used to how their country works in terms of healthcare, I don't think you realize how dystopian your system is. Medicare for all is not ridiculously left, you have all just bought into the narrative set by the rich to favour a system that caters to the rich. It is like you are still trapped in a system where fire fighters are private and only prioritise the houses of people that pay them.



I agree, you do things better. The people who want what you have should live with you, they should not try to make the US into Australia or Canada. Then, the US would not be the US.


What's wrong with improving the US?


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08 Jan 2020, 2:01 am

Persephone29 wrote:
...they should not try to make the US into Australia or Canada. Then, the US would not be the US.



that's true.



it would be better.


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Persephone29
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08 Jan 2020, 7:50 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
There are lots of services out there that folks don't know about, but again they are geared towards kids who are really sick or have the potential to get really sick.


And the ones not deemed sick enough but need it anyway. Kid breaks their arm but the family lives paycheck to paycheck? And it isn't just kids.

A few weeks ago my brother, an unemployed university student, damaged his ankle, had to take an ambulance to the hospital and had several hospital visits since. Medicare covered it he did not have to empty his bank account and possibly end up in debt, because we do things better than America.

A lot of Americans that are used to how their country works in terms of healthcare, I don't think you realize how dystopian your system is. Medicare for all is not ridiculously left, you have all just bought into the narrative set by the rich to favour a system that caters to the rich. It is like you are still trapped in a system where fire fighters are private and only prioritise the houses of people that pay them.



I agree, you do things better. The people who want what you have should live with you, they should not try to make the US into Australia or Canada. Then, the US would not be the US.


What's wrong with improving the US?



It needs to be an improvement all are invested in, not just one side. You say frequently that you are a 'starving artist.' Which is fine... It's your choice. Then, you say the US needs to change to suit your choice. So, you get the choice to do what you love and then strong arm someone else into funding it? Pardon me if I have a problem with that. I know of very few people who are ecstatic at the idea of getting out of bed between 4-6 am to trudge off to a job they've been doing for 30 years. But without them, your dream of universal healthcare and basic income would go up in smoke. There's a huge element of selfish and self-serving interests in your plan.


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Bradleigh
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08 Jan 2020, 7:57 am

So, you are saying that being poor is a choice?

Do you recognise the self interest already inherent in the culture, where companies continue to report record profit to pay out to its higher ups and stockholders, but you see no changes on things like a minimum wage and trying to cut every expense possible with its workers?


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08 Jan 2020, 8:57 am

Antrax wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Antrax wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Just about every other First World country has had this stuff figured out for a long time. Americans are so afraid of the "socialism" boogeyman that they scream at any thought of universal health care or expanded social programs. The longer I live the more I've come to see the U.S. as a sullen, petulant teenager who thinks they know everything, and the "old people" are a bunch of silly fools that can't grasp his superior youthful "wisdom."
Very ironic choice of metaphor because it's the "old people" who says these programs are a bad idea...
Respectfully, I think you're both wrong, but not by much. It's a small, loud segment of the "Old Guard" that despises anything requiring the wealthy to surrender even a fractional percentage of their wealth for little or no tangible benefit in return.

Sure, one-tenth of one percent of one million dollars is a whopping one-thousand dollars, but that's still a thousand dollars that a wealthy person would not have if he or she was required to give it up.


If I may retort:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/268766/soc ... dults.aspx

Socialism favorability among:

Millenials/Gen Z: 49%
Gen Xers: 39%
Baby Boomers: 32%

Capitalism favorability among:

Millenials/Gen Z: 51%
Gen Xers: 61%
Baby Boomers: 68%

"Me-ism" is probably close to 100%.


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08 Jan 2020, 9:19 am

Bradleigh wrote:
So, you are saying that being poor is a choice?

Do you recognise the self interest already inherent in the culture, where companies continue to report record profit to pay out to its higher ups and stockholders, but you see no changes on things like a minimum wage and trying to cut every expense possible with its workers?

Watch financial videos, and you will see poor people who are poor, mostly because of their own bad decisions.

1. Live a lifestyle they can't afford.
2. They spend all their money, and don't save.
3. Buy stupid stuff they don't really need.
4. Go into debts of all kinds.
5. Don't invest (rent, lease, nothing in the stock market)

That is the first step towards helping these people.


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08 Jan 2020, 9:59 am

Bradleigh wrote:
So, you are saying that being poor is a choice?

Do you recognise the self interest already inherent in the culture, where companies continue to report record profit to pay out to its higher ups and stockholders, but you see no changes on things like a minimum wage and trying to cut every expense possible with its workers?



Being poor is not a choice, but staying poor can definitely be a choice. Especially if the choice involves being a 'starving artist,' which is the choice I am talking about in the comment you are responding to. Krachy chooses to stay home and write, which is fine. That's his choice. What isn't his choice is to tell me that my interests would be better served if I saw things his way. He thinks if my 58 year old husband keeps slaving away, drops our insurance and we all get on Medicaid, everything would be great. Kracky's happy at his typewriter, doing what he loves. My husband wants to retire, but doesn't dare. And we all have mediocre insurance. That's no fun for us Bradleigh, that's only fun for Kracky.


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08 Jan 2020, 2:59 pm

My mom is in her 70s and works 12 hour days.

She gets up at 4am to be at work at 5:50am. She has been doing this for 40 years. She drives a bus, and doesn't make a lot.

She tells me, "IF ANYONE IS GOING TO RETIRE IT"s GOING TO BE ME".

The idea of grown men (like Yang) wanting UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME (welfare) would set her off.


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