I'm anti-vaccine, but not anti-science.

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Jiheisho
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24 May 2021, 2:43 am

Dylanperr wrote:

However in certain cases vaccines can worsen and trigger certain symptoms that can make autism worse.

Please post a link to that research.

Nades
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24 May 2021, 2:54 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Nades wrote:

Being 2.5 times more likely to refuse a HPV jab years later after an unpleasant booster sessions is hardly a small problem in my eyes.

Do you have any rigorous evidence as to the scale of the problem? Any evidence that reducing vaccination numbers would make people more likely to get them?

I'm struggling to find the original source due to the Covid vaccines forcing it off the search results but I found this instead which appears to be a different report hinting at the same thing.

I just don't really see the point of the TB jab for example if it puts people off having a much more useful HPV jab in the future.

Indeed they removed the TB jab from regular use in the UK in 2006 and I assume doing so helped with HPV jab uptake instead because if the TB jab was the last memory of a vaccine then damn.......

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570478/

ArtsyFarsty
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24 May 2021, 8:36 am

Nades wrote:

The UK vaccination schedule isn't that bad really compared to other countries like the US. (Though I think we could also get rid of the tetanus aspect of any jabs too because it's also incredibly rare and can be mitigated against even without a prior vaccine) The flu jab to kids too? Why? Seems pointless to me. I don't know any kids in the UK that get flu jabs. I don;t remember getting any as a kid too. At least not between 2 to 10 years of age.

Other than that I think a lot of boosters also cause harm if given if an over zealous manner. Multiple boosters in one go isn't the best first impression of medical practitioners and it makes people more likely in the future to avoid anything that might involve a needle.

As much as people rip into Donald Trump he's right, giving a kid 4 or more injections in one go is how you treat a horse and a good way of damaging trust with doctors very quickly. A great deal of people are better off not having their boosters if it makes them terrified of needles as adults.

Huh? The US and UK have virtually the same vaccination schedule; the only difference is UK has the Meningococcal B vaccine on the infant and toddler schedule (US does not), and the US has the Varicella vaccine on the infant and toddler schedule (UK does not). Regarding influenza vaccination in children, compliance is actually pretty low in the US because the vaccine is not required for school attendance; only for daycare if the provider requires it.

NoClearMind53
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24 May 2021, 11:23 pm

KT67 wrote:

That's like saying you're not anti-science but the world was created in a volcano or you're not anti-science but global warming isn't real.

You can't have it both ways.

More anti-dealing-with-problems-that-affect-all-of-society-in-a-realistic-way. I feel like it will take something like WWIII or another much more deadly plague to change this hyper-individualist mindset. The everyone-for-themselves mindset people currently have in the west due to hyper-capitalist ideology will be the end of civilization. Things went okay for a while, but it can't go on indefinitely. It's like the fall of Roma all over again.

Nades
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25 May 2021, 2:32 am

NoClearMind53 wrote:

KT67 wrote:

That's like saying you're not anti-science but the world was created in a volcano or you're not anti-science but global warming isn't real.

You can't have it both ways.

Have you read anything I said? The whole notion of what I've been saying is that I think vaccines should be more targeted rather than a sledge hammer approach.

I've had this view after seeing the poor vaccine uptake in the MMR jab in school with many students saying they avoided it because of a bad experience with the TB jab a year earlier. A jab that was later discontinued after being deemed unnecessary and to this day 15 years later, we have no issues.

Being over the top with needles seems to put people off having arguably more useful jabs.

I think the TB jab might have cost more lives than it saved from the needle phobia it causes during the latter end of its use.

A quote from the study in the link a couple of posts earlier.

"The more same-day preschool injections between 4–6 years of age, the more likely a child was to fear needles five years later. Preadolescent needle fear was a stronger predictor than parent vaccine anxiety of subsequent HPV vaccine uptake"

Needle phobia in kids might be even worse than the parent "vaccines causes autism" brigade and we all know how much we dislike the latter.

Edna3362
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25 May 2021, 3:59 am

Anti-vaccination and sciences.

Trying to figure how the world population would live healthy and prevent most childhood diseases without depending on vaccinations?

If one wants to discuss anti-vaccines without being anti-science...
Get rid of the SJW-esque ideas and the associations of anti-autism generated from the west away from it.

Think of the alternative ways on how to get rid of the diseases that was intended to be resolved by vaccinations in the first place.

Like, say...
If vaccinations were not invented, how were most of the childhood diseases were resolved?

How to not-need-to-teach-the-immune-system, survive and without complications/acquired disability/etc...?
Or even get rid of the source of the disease as to why it exists in the first place?

Like how or why measles doesn't happen to animals yet it happens to humans?
Or where it actually came from at all.

If not that, how did it spread?
I'm aware there are histories around certain diseases that were brought into different places, until eventually most of the world.

How does one undo the knot that was done centuries ago?
I'm aware this will compromise travel no different or way worse than the pandemic now.

I'm curious what and how that would be.
Because I live in places where not everyone gets to access vaccination.
Mind that I do not came from the west nor do see it from such lens.

So I'd be for the idea of not having to depend on vaccinations, or any alternative ideas to prevent the diseases.

This doesn't mean I'm anti-vaccine. :roll:

More like...
Screw the autism scare and the theories about vaccine injury and toxins, screw needle phobia or trauma theories around needles -- because not everyone gets any option of any needle in the first place.

This only means I'm very open to the alternatives -- because there are no needles and there's nothing to jab someone with.

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Nades
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25 May 2021, 4:09 am

Edna3362 wrote:

Anti-vaccination and sciences.

Trying to figure how the world population would live healthy and prevent most childhood diseases without depending on vaccinations?

If one wants to discuss anti-vaccines without being anti-science...
Get rid of the SJW-esque ideas and the associations of anti-autism generated from the west away from it.

Think of the alternative ways on how to get rid of the diseases that was intended to be resolved by vaccinations in the first place.

Like, say...
If vaccinations were not invented, how were most of the childhood diseases were resolved?

How to not-need-to-teach-the-immune-system, survive and without complications/acquired disability/etc...?
Or even get rid of the source of the disease as to why it exists in the first place?

Like how or why measles doesn't happen to animals yet it happens to humans?
Or where it actually came from at all.

If not that, how did it spread?
I'm aware there are histories around certain diseases that were brought into different places, until eventually most of the world.

How does one undo the knot that was done centuries ago?
I'm aware this will compromise travel no different or way worse than the pandemic now.

I'm curious what and how that would be.
Because I live in places where not everyone gets to access vaccination.
Mind that I do not came from the west nor do see it from such lens.

So I'd be for the idea of not having to depend on vaccinations, or any alternative ideas to prevent the diseases.

This doesn't mean I'm anti-vaccine. :roll:

More like...
Screw the autism scare and the theories about vaccine injury and toxins, screw needle phobia or trauma theories around needles -- because not everyone gets any needle in the first place.

This only means I'm very open to the alternatives.

The population largely can't live a healthy life without vaccines. We also can't live as healthily if people are afraid of having more helpful vaccines (HPV) because they had a bad experience with a prior and dubiously effective vaccine (TB) for example.

Removing some boosters or vaccines with limited use might have more benefits later on if it makes people more receptive to overall more beneficial vaccines or in a time of crisis like the obvious problems were having now with the pandemic.

Alternatives might be vaccinating cattle like in the case of TB instead of shoving what is essentially an animal vaccine in kids. Other human illnesses might have little alternative to vaccines but sanitation helps a lot with many.

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