Groupthink and tribalism in the Progressive Left

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Never ceases to amaze me when right wing "intellectuals" build a case they never actually articulate what the danger is? Seems like they deliberately skirt around the issue.

My question to to the good Dr Rosen, law academic is "What ideas does he actually feel students aren't being exposed to?"

It seems highly unlikely to me that Linda Sarsour would have any strong ties with Farrakhan. Some of her values are quite incompatible with his, such as her support for LGBTQ+ rights and various feminist causes. And, sure enough, Linda Sarsour Apologizes to Woman's March Jewish Members for Slow Response to anti-Semitism, Haaretz, Nov. 21, 2018.


Which Jewish groups?

Whether Linda Sarsour has said anything truly "anti-Semitic" seems to depend on who you ask. Unfortunately, there are quite a few Zionist groups these days that paint any and all criticism of Israel as "anti-Semitic."

I'd have to see more details of specific controversial things she has actually said in order to form my own opinion.


But even this article mentions that some "far-left" Jewish groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace support her.


As far as I can tell, the only purported evidence for this claim about Linda Sarsour is a misunderstanding of some sarcastic remarks of hers, e.g. this tweet, which were intended to poke fun at American right wing paranoia about alleged attempts to impose "Sharia Law" here in the U.S.A.


The citations here regarding her alleged support for imposing "Sharia law" are based on the above-mentioned sarcastic tweets.

Muslim extremists who genuinely want Sharia law to be imposed here in the U.S.A. do exist. However, during the past two decades or so, just about every Muslim public figure, of whatever stripe, has been harassed by right wingers (primarily the more extreme Zionists) who claim that even the most liberal/progressive Muslim activists are part of a conspiracy to impose Sharia law here in the U.S.A. Hence Linda Sarsour's sarcasm, as she explained here.

Argument from incredulity, also known as argument from personal incredulity, appeal to common sense, or the divine fallacy,[1] is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition must be false because it contradicts one's personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine.

Wikipedia



I see no signs of any sarcasm in the tweet. I do not understand where you're getting that it was meant as sarcasm. It seems to me that some people, when confronted with embarrassing quotes from figures they want to defend, simply assert that the embarrassing quotes were intended as sarcasm without any justification.

What about the time she tweeted that she would like to take Ayaan Hersi Ali's vagina away, knowing that Ali is a victim of FGM? Let me guess: that was sarcasm too, right?

I made an actual argument as to why it was unlikely, given not just my personal beliefs but the existence of plenty of evidence of her support for LGBTQ+ rights and various feminist causes, and given her apology, about which I provided a link to a news story (in an Israeli newspaper, no less).

The only evidence for her having a "tie" with Farrakhan is that she once spoke at an event hosted by him. This is evidence of at least a weak "tie," but not necessarily a strong tie.

Regarding "Sharia law":


You don't get it because, apparently, you're not fully aware of the ways in which, ever since 9/11/2001, just about every Muslim public figure here in the U.S.A. has been harassed by professional Islamophobes. [EDIT: this website discusses some of the people I am referring to as professional Islamophobes. Many, though not all of them, seem to be ultra-Zionists who believe that the way to win sympathy for Israel is by whipping up fear of Muslims.]

One of the main things professional Islamophobes have tried to whip up fear of is an alleged plot to impose "Sharia law" on everyone here in the U.S.A. Such a plot, even if it were real, would obviously be unable to succeed here in the U.S.A., where Muslims are only a small minority and not at all likely to become more than a small minority anytime soon.

As alleged evidence of "creeping Sharia," the professional Islamophobes point to things like Halal food being an option for public school lunches being served in school districts with a large percentage of Muslims. But that's no different from Kosher food being an option for public school lunches being served in school districts with a large percentage of Jews.

Here are some articles about the "Sharia law" scare:

- Nothing to Fear: Debunking the Mythical “Sharia Threat” to Our Judicial System: A Report of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief, 2011.
- Understanding Sharia Law: Conservatives’ Skewed Interpretation Needs Debunking, Center for American Progress, Mar 31, 2011.
- Islamic Law Is Alive and Well in the U.S. by Jeffrey Bristol, 2 Mar 2018.
- Tracking Anti-Muslim Legislation Across the U.S, Southern Poverty Law Center

So it's no surprise that Linda Sarsour -- and other Muslim public figures -- would poke fun at this obviously ridiculous paranoia about "Sharia law" being imposed here in the U.S.A.


That happens, sometimes. But another thing that happens, sometimes, is that un-informed outsiders just don't get the joke. In this case I'm a bit surprised that you didn't get it.


In this case I agree with you that that was a cruel, tasteless, and inappropriate thing for her to say, regardless of context. Still, I'm curious to know the context.

Do I need to point out that just because someone issues a public apology does not make them sincere. Especially if their action had some consequences on their career.



The context is that Ali was forced to flee her home and family to escape an arranged marriage and has to be escorted by body guards at all times because she left Islam and openly criticizes it. And simply by telling her story to the world she is exposing all the lies about Islam being progressive and feminist and that pisses Sarsour off. Sarsour is fond of the strategy of silencing any and all criticism of Islam with blanket accusations of Islamophobia. Islamophobia is often used as a catch-all to deliberately confuse criticism of Islam with bigotry against Muslims.

Criticizing Christianity for its violation of women's rights, calls for violent persecution of LGBTQ+ communities, and persecution of religious minorities is applauded and encouraged by the Left. But whenever anyone openly speaks about the exact same issues within Islam, the Left labels them as Islamophobes and bigots.

I totally agree with this statement of yours.
This doesn't just happen in Islam, it applies to most "tolerated groups" as well.
Reasonable criticism is treated with prejudice. Even if this criticism comes from the individuals in this group themselves.

I'm not saying that criticism of minorities is not something to be taken with caution, especially when criticism comes from outsiders who are biased against this group. This is exactly what should be done in affirmative action.
But denying/ignoring all criticism means hindering the reforming forces within this group.


This is more like treating minority as a specimen/pet than as equal collaborators.
The implication is that modernization and advancement are only for "us", and you are responsible for keeping it "authentic/feature" for others to appreciate and study. And use your presence to demonstrate our virtue.

When denying criticism from within, it implies distrust in the self-determination ability of minorities.
Especially when the most visible and typical faction of a minority group is actually oppressing other factions, the cover-up of the problem is actually so harmful to the individual of that minority group.

This kind of "protection" makes minority groups relatively backward for a long time, and they can only continue to rely on "protected".
While the motive is not necessarily so, it is the consequence.

I've noticed the same issues occurring within feminist and MRA groups. Both sides present legitimate grievances regarding the struggles men and women face. The problem I see is that both also trivialize or deny the struggles of the other gender and attempt to blame them for all of society's problems.

But then on top of that, the Left upholds a double standard in which one is encouraged and praised while the other is villified.

Last edited by dorkseid on 09 May 2022, 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

I think it's a fiction to say that progressives tolerate Islamic misogyny and homophobia. Progressives tend to revile bigotry in all its forms. When they see a Muslim being homophobic then they'll criticise them, but for being homophobic, not for being Muslim. For example, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48294017 or for more detail, here: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... protesters

What progressives don't tolerate is conservatives trying to pinkwash their Islamophobia. People use Koranic homophobia to attempt to justify harsh anti-Islamic policies (such as restricting immigration) while not proposing similar measures to deal with Christian or secular homophobia. The issue with a homophobic Muslim, just like a homophobic Christian or follower of any other faith or a homophobic irreligious person, is that they are homophobic, not that they are a Muslim.

Have you forgotten Ben Affleck's infamous tirade on Bill Maher?



Again, I don't think we're talking about the same people. There are huge numbers of people, especially on the Internet, who have a very poor understanding of social issues and are looking to score brownie points by finding others to strawman and vilify. I understand why you probably don't consider those people true progressives, but you need to understand that those are the voices lay people are predominantly exposed to.

And this mentality has creeped its way into academia to some extent. In the OP I gave the example of Peggy McIntosh and her essay about white privilege. I would hope that's just some blog post she typed out in an afternoon, and her more substantial work is much better thought out and researched. I admit that I have not sought it out, but my point is that nobody should be required to when what I see on the surface is this offputting. The fact is that this essay exist and McIntosh is forever the person who thinks white privilege means all white people can afford to live in safe neighborhoods.

Another example is French feminist author Pauline Hermange, who published an essay titled "I Hate Men".

New York Times - I Hate Men

Have you took the time to hear what ex-Muslims have to say about all this?

Tell this to the "progressive" left.

In the world of politics, "Double Standards" is the main game in town.

My ex-fiance gaslighted me and socially isolated me until my social circle consisted only of her and her small group of friends who often served as her "flying monkeys". She told me other women were saying that I'm ugly and gross. She got me to a point where I felt I was constantly walking on eggshells, afraid to go anywhere or buy anything without securing her approval first. And then she broke up with me over the phone while I was going through a very trying time, calling je a bum and a loser and comparing me to deadbeats and drug addicts. But when she went around spreading lying and saying that it was I who abused her everyone eagerly believed her lies while nobody would believe me when I told the truth. Because I'm a man and she's a woman and my disability is invisible while hers is apparent and easy to understand.

Growing up, my mother constantly belittled me for my gender. She regularly made jokes about how stupid and useless men are. And when my little brothers were subjected to unconsentual genital mutilation as infants, she continued to saditically joke and laugh about the excruciating pain they went through for many years after.

When I was homeless I called a homeless shelter, but was told they only take in women and children and there was no shelter for men. In other words, I was denied shelter specifically because of my gender. A bunch of self-prockaimed feminists presisted that because I'm a "privileged white male" that it was my own fault I'm homeless because I'm just too lazy to get a job. This was after I had throughly explained that I have ASD and suffer from mental illness.

These are all my own personal life experiences. They all happened to me. None of you can tell me this s**t isn't real. Certain individuals, despite admitting themselves to know nothing about, claimed that I'm lying about what I've been through. But it is all real. Nobody can tell me it didn't happen.

I don't know what it's like to have gone through the experiences you have and you are in the best position to speak about your experiences.

But I am not really clear why you the conflate what you went through with the "left"?

I have no trouble believing what you have gone through.