War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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It is well-documented that Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds and others in the 80s and 90s.

Yeah I know. I acknowledge that. I acknowledge our history.

I never said we had altruistic motives in invading Iraq. To claim this is bogus.

I disagree with all of this except the last part. All that "fighting to protect our freedom" stuff was meretricious propaganda just like what Putin is feeding his people. In fact, I really think most Americans agree with me on this, and Trump was able to cynically take advantage of that sentiment as part of his scheme to become President.

*sigh*

Ukraine isn’t exactly a nation of perfect angels, either. They still struggle with corrupt oligarchs.

But that’s an internal issue for the Ukrainian people to fix. Russians dislike Ukraine because Ukraine is a sort of gateway to the west and has the power to disrupt Russia’s chokehold on oil and gas. Belarus is exactly the same. The difference between Ukraine and Belarus is Belarus still thinks it’s part of the Soviet Union while Ukraine wants nothing to do with Russia. Russia still maintains control over Belarus as a puppet state. Ukraine has been more resistant to Russian influence.

Iraq is a weak state that asserted its dominance over smaller nations who were friendly to the United States. There was a strong interest among Iraqis to depose Hussein, establish a democracy, and open up friendly relations with the West. It was easy to get control over and occupy Iraq with minimal loss of life. That’s just how you fight a war. You do what it takes to win.

As to whether the US was right to do it…I think both the ends and means were justified. However, I’m no longer convinced that was our war to fight. It’s not our job to protect the sovereignty of Kuwait. It’s our job to protect our own people from attack.

Aside from gas disputes, which is an economic and trade issue, not a military issue, Russian and Ukraine have little to do with each other. Certainly nothing worth going to war over. Ukraine is Russia’s version of our Vietnam. We’re finding out Russia is not nearly as strong militarily as anyone thought, certainly not as strong as the US. Ukrainians aren’t weak. They aren’t as strong as Russia, but they have clearly shown the ability to wage a protracted war of attrition that Russia is not equipped for. The only reason nobody wants to commit troops to Ukraine is Russia’s nuclear deterrent and the dreaded prospect of a great big bear hunt in a country with enough land to swallow up any invading army and 100 bears for each soldier in that army. There’s no beating Russia in a fair fight. So Ukraine is ultimately on the right side of history by repelling Russian attacks and not caving to their demands.

Should the US get involved? I don’t think so any more than Iraq. If it’s not our war, we should stay out of it.

Thats a good point: Ukraine's citizens never asked Putin for help to deal with Nazis -- and in fact they kept making a point they don't need his help.

But now lets take a hypothetical scenario. Imagine that there were some Ukrainian's citizens that were asking Putin's help. Do you think it would be wrong for Putin to invade Ukraine in this hypothetical case?

Yeah I know. I acknowledge that. I acknowledge our history.

I never said we had purely altruistic motives in invading Iraq. To claim this is bogus.

It is really not in the best interest of the EU to let the Russians run roughshod over Ukraine.

There would be a legit “domino” effect should the Russians succeed in Ukraine. Who’s next? Maybe Poland, maybe Finland?
Maybe Moldova?

Russia wants, at least, to possess the territory the USSR possessed….plus their sphere of influence in Eastern and Central Europe.

And their overall ideology is regressive and repressive; they want full authoritarian dominion over all those peoples. And they seek to stifle independent thought.

Imagine if we stopped Nazi Germany in 1938 as far as Czechoslovakia was concerned….and stopped them from re-militarizing themselves prior to this? Hitler might have been stopped, and WW II prevented in Europe.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and I don’t often indulge in hindsight. But it seems to me that history will repeat itself if Putin is allowed to be successful.

The United States and the UK have historic and cultural ties, so can’t we just invade the UK?

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3) Hitler planned to kill all the Jews and enslave all the slavs. Putin isn't planning this

The Russian promyshlennikis attacked the people on the island by shooting guns and cannons, slaughtering an estimated 200 to 500 men, women and children on Refuge Rock. Some sources state the number killed was as many as 2,000, or 3,000 persons. Following the attack of Awa'uq, Shelikhov claimed to have captured over 1,000 people, detaining some 400 as hostages, including children. The Russians suffered no casualties.

Those who could swim were shot by the Russian forces.There were 1,266 households, including 900 Daurs and 4,500 Manchus in the area until the massacre. Many Manchu villages were burned by Cossacks in the massacre according to Victor Zatsepine.

The revolt led to the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Kyrgyz and Kazakhs into China, while the suppression of the revolt by the Imperial Russian Army led to around 100,000 to 270,000 deaths.
...
Special importance is given to the event in Kyrgyz historiography due to the fact that perhaps has many as 40% of the ethnic Kyrgyz population died during or in the aftermath of the revolt.

Well, here are some differences between Hitler and Putin

1) As you mentioned yourself in the above quote, Putin is trying to get the territory of former USSR. On the other hand Hitler was trying to gain territories that had no historic ties to Germany.

2) In fact, Hitler wanted to conquer the whole entire world. Putin isn't nearly that ambitious.

3) Hitler planned to kill all the Jews and enslave all the slavs. Putin isn't planning this

4) Even if Hitler were to be stopped after Czechoslovakia, he would have still killed all the Jews in Germany proper. This is not a concern with Putin

5) You inferred that it was America who stopped Hitler when you used the word "we". The fact of a matter is that Soviet Union did most of the job of defeating Hitler, yet America won't give them credit for it. I know it is a bit of OT, because you are talking about 1938 and Soviet Union only started opposing Hitler in 1941 (until then the two of them actually had a deal). But still, the problem is that Americans won't even give Soviet Union a credit for what they did after 1941, so I have to make this point.

Actually its more like the UK invading us...to restore the British Empire, and reverse the American revolution.

But that you mention it...I think that the Queen SHOULD invade us. And rescue us Americans from ... [ whatever poltical group you mostdislike]......the KKK, Black Lives Matter, QAnon, Antifa, Boogie Boys, whatever. Just like Putin is just ...selflessly invading Ukraine in order to rescue the Ukrainians from that handful of neo Nazis they have. And why he is kindly and selflessly bombing, and shelling, the crap out of the Ukrainians!