Noam Chomsky : Why America Holds Israel as a Sacred Cow?

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Readydaer
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17 Nov 2023, 11:40 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Many democracies through the ages have been marred by limited suffrage. Switzerland has been democratic for over 700 years, but did not give women the right to vote until 1971. Likewise ancient Athens had a democratic form of government, but had even more limited suffrage. Even though the suffrage was limited, these governments were still democratic in form, as distinct from monarchies or dictatorships.

Readydaer wrote:
i think that's like saying nazi germany was a democracy [for non-everyone the nazis hated]

Germany became a dictatorship when Hitler was given dictatorial powers by the Enabling Act.


alright, Germany was a bad example. i maintain my position that those states were not true democracies. I suppose it's subjective


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naturalplastic
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17 Nov 2023, 12:09 pm

The great thing about Israel is that it is an outpost of Western values in the Middle East.

The terrible thing about Israel is that it is an outpost of Western values(and therefor of Western power) in the Middle East.



Mona Pereth
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17 Nov 2023, 1:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The great thing about Israel is that it is an outpost of Western values in the Middle East.

The terrible thing about Israel is that it is an outpost of Western values(and therefor of Western power) in the Middle East.

One problem is that the "Western values" are at least a century out-of-date.

As Tony Judt wrote in Israel: The Alternative, The New York Review, October 23, 2003:

Quote:
At the dawn of the twentieth century, in the twilight of the continental empires, Europe’s subject peoples dreamed of forming “nation-states,” territorial homelands where Poles, Czechs, Serbs, Armenians, and others might live free, masters of their own fate. When the Habsburg and Romanov empires collapsed after World War I, their leaders seized the opportunity. A flurry of new states emerged; and the first thing they did was set about privileging their national, “ethnic” majority—defined by language, or religion, or antiquity, or all three—at the expense of inconvenient local minorities, who were consigned to second-class status: permanently resident strangers in their own home.

But one nationalist movement, Zionism, was frustrated in its ambitions. The dream of an appropriately sited Jewish national home in the middle of the defunct Turkish Empire had to wait upon the retreat of imperial Britain: a process that took three more decades and a second world war. And thus it was only in 1948 that a Jewish nation-state was established in formerly Ottoman Palestine. But the founders of the Jewish state had been influenced by the same concepts and categories as their fin-de-siècle contemporaries back in Warsaw, or Odessa, or Bucharest; not surprisingly, Israel’s ethno-religious self-definition, and its discrimination against internal “foreigners,” has always had more in common with, say, the practices of post-Habsburg Romania than either party might care to acknowledge.

The problem with Israel, in short, is not—as is sometimes suggested—that it is a European “enclave” in the Arab world; but rather that it arrived too late. It has imported a characteristically late-nineteenth-century separatist project into a world that has moved on, a world of individual rights, open frontiers, and international law. The very idea of a “Jewish state”—a state in which Jews and the Jewish religion have exclusive privileges from which non-Jewish citizens are forever excluded—is rooted in another time and place. Israel, in short, is an anachronism.

I'll add that Zionism isn't the only nationalist movement that failed to establish its own nation state back then. There are also plenty of European ethnic groups that still don't have their own nation states, and it's unlikely that they will ever get them. (Examples include the Basques and the Rom and Sinti.)

The author of this article, Tony Judt, advocates a unified Israel-Palestine in which everyone has equal rights. Anyhow, he also says:

Quote:
Most of the readers of this essay live in pluralist states which have long since become multiethnic and multicultural. “Christian Europe,” pace M. Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, is a dead letter; Western civilization today is a patchwork of colors and religions and languages, of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, and many others—as any visitor to London or Paris or Geneva will know.

Israel itself is a multicultural society in all but name; yet it remains distinctive among democratic states in its resort to ethnoreligious criteria with which to denominate and rank its citizens. It is an oddity among modern nations not—as its more paranoid supporters assert—because it is a Jewish state and no one wants the Jews to have a state; but because it is a Jewish state in which one community—Jews—is set above others, in an age when that sort of state has no place.


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