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Male voters and women in authority

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lostonearth35
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27 Jul 2024, 10:23 pm

Heaven help us all if a woman should ever become president of the US!! The country will be a complete disaster, full of crime and killing and greed and stupidity until it becomes a total wasteland!!

And that is what is known as sarcasm. :roll:



cyberdad
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27 Jul 2024, 10:24 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
That's an attack that's likely to land because she can't really point to a record that justifies her being the nominee and she didn't even earn the nomination this time around. Had she won the nomination by fighting it out in the primaries, that would have gone a long ways towards convincing the folks that could be convinced that she deserved it. Likewise, her term in the Senate was pretty short. She didn't even complete a single term as Senator before becoming the VP. Likewise, her time as AG of CA involved such low points as withholding evidence from a prisoner on death row and prosecuting people for marijuana related crimes and parents for truancy. That clip of her laughing about sending people to prison for marijuana and admitting that she smoked the stuff was incredibly problematic, and laughing about it just made it that much worse.

It's sort of the same deal as with HRC, you can't run on diversity and expect for people to go after you on your merits. VP Harris might become a great President, but she hasn't earned the nomination and she hasn't done a particularly impressive job as VP either.

The whole thing is rather comical because it's not like we've had a lot of female candidates that aren't horrible candidates to choose from that arguably deserved to win and didn't because they were women. We've had terrible women running and then getting their buts handed to them because being a woman isn't sufficient justification to win votes. And, women know this, if women thought that being a woman was enough, it would have happened by now. There are more female voters than male ones in the US.


there are probably more deserving female candidates but isn't that always the way that those with connections/power tend to rise > merit based candidates. Applies often in the job market too.

She is the one taking the helm for the democrats so the question now is how well the republicans can attack her credibility sufficiently well enough to tip trump over the line in November. there is some school of thought this might be harder than it appears and trump's team haven't yet formed a cogent strategy to oppose Harris.



cyberdad
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27 Jul 2024, 10:25 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
Heaven help us all if a woman should ever become president of the US!! The country will be a complete disaster, full of crime and killing and greed and stupidity until it becomes a total wasteland!!


Ask the Brits what they thought of Margaret thatcher



auntblabby
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27 Jul 2024, 10:42 pm

thatcher was eventually put in her place. i never cared for her or any other authoritarian type. american politics is brain-dead.



cyberdad
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27 Jul 2024, 10:58 pm

She was called the Iron lady.



auntblabby
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27 Jul 2024, 11:04 pm

i remember that the soviets gave her that sobriquet. but she had to be taught the polished expression of those iron ways by one of her advisors. i did read that she was a research chemist in a previous professional life, whose team invented soft-serve ice cream. she was a bully, for sure. but the dichotomy of that was she also cooked for her husband and often enough for her team. she was a gourmet cook.



MatchboxVagabond
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27 Jul 2024, 11:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
That's an attack that's likely to land because she can't really point to a record that justifies her being the nominee and she didn't even earn the nomination this time around. Had she won the nomination by fighting it out in the primaries, that would have gone a long ways towards convincing the folks that could be convinced that she deserved it. Likewise, her term in the Senate was pretty short. She didn't even complete a single term as Senator before becoming the VP. Likewise, her time as AG of CA involved such low points as withholding evidence from a prisoner on death row and prosecuting people for marijuana related crimes and parents for truancy. That clip of her laughing about sending people to prison for marijuana and admitting that she smoked the stuff was incredibly problematic, and laughing about it just made it that much worse.

It's sort of the same deal as with HRC, you can't run on diversity and expect for people to go after you on your merits. VP Harris might become a great President, but she hasn't earned the nomination and she hasn't done a particularly impressive job as VP either.

The whole thing is rather comical because it's not like we've had a lot of female candidates that aren't horrible candidates to choose from that arguably deserved to win and didn't because they were women. We've had terrible women running and then getting their buts handed to them because being a woman isn't sufficient justification to win votes. And, women know this, if women thought that being a woman was enough, it would have happened by now. There are more female voters than male ones in the US.


there are probably more deserving female candidates but isn't that always the way that those with connections/power tend to rise > merit based candidates. Applies often in the job market too.

She is the one taking the helm for the democrats so the question now is how well the republicans can attack her credibility sufficiently well enough to tip trump over the line in November. there is some school of thought this might be harder than it appears and trump's team haven't yet formed a cogent strategy to oppose Harris.

We'll have to see. If she wins, it's going to set women back for decades. That isn't be inevitable, but receiving the nomination on the basis of a couple crooked primaries is going to raise the stakes a lot. If she wins and is anything less than absolutely stellar, it's likely to set things back a lot.



cyberdad
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28 Jul 2024, 2:31 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
If she wins and is anything less than absolutely stellar, it's likely to set things back a lot.


A lot democratic female voters might work on the principle she's their consolation prize after Hillary bombed. Kind of "we finally made it and have a woman president in the white house". In some ways, for the US, it's more revolutionary than novelty of Obama's presidency.



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28 Jul 2024, 11:33 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:

Thank you for making my point. None of that is actually true. This sort of revisionist history does little to advance any sort of useful end.

Yes, yes, thank you--keep doing that! Please dismiss anyone who tries to talk about male privilege without addressing anything they actually said! Especially if a woman tries to make this argument, the best thing you can do to convince others you are right is to just make blanket dismissals of anything that person says. Just like all who oppose feminism and their talk of "male privilege", your position will certainly be vindicated by history! Eventually! In a few years probably! Don't quote me on that!

After all, when has (stifled laughter) wh-when has (snort) when has acknowledging sexism (pffff) or privilege (hahaha!) ever benefitted anyone? Hahahaha! C-Can you imagine (Hahahahaha!) how much (pffff) WORSE the world would be if anyone ever listened to anyone who suggested privilege was a serious problem? :lol:

The West really went down the tubes once those women started challenging the status quo, and voting, and becoming politically active... How I long for the sexual equality of 1900 or even just 1960--before everything became "sexism" this and "privilege" that....


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MatchboxVagabond
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28 Jul 2024, 1:54 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:

Thank you for making my point. None of that is actually true. This sort of revisionist history does little to advance any sort of useful end.

Yes, yes, thank you--keep doing that! Please dismiss anyone who tries to talk about male privilege without addressing anything they actually said! Especially if a woman tries to make this argument, the best thing you can do to convince others you are right is to just make blanket dismissals of anything that person says. Just like all who oppose feminism and their talk of "male privilege", your position will certainly be vindicated by history! Eventually! In a few years probably! Don't quote me on that!

After all, when has (stifled laughter) wh-when has (snort) when has acknowledging sexism (pffff) or privilege (hahaha!) ever benefitted anyone? Hahahaha! C-Can you imagine (Hahahahaha!) how much (pffff) WORSE the world would be if anyone ever listened to anyone who suggested privilege was a serious problem? :lol:

The West really went down the tubes once those women started challenging the status quo, and voting, and becoming politically active... How I long for the sexual equality of 1900 or even just 1960--before everything became "sexism" this and "privilege" that....

The term gish gallop exists for a reason. There's a certain irony to you complaining that I'm being dismissive of your dismissiveness of the typical male experience.



MatchboxVagabond
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28 Jul 2024, 11:52 pm

At any rate, there's little point in debunking tautologies. If it's better to be men because men are privileged and men are privileged because they're men, then there really isn't any point in bothering to do more than flag the inaccuracy as such. As such thinking doesn't lead anywhere useful.

It's high time folks start calling out that sort of BS.



TwilightPrincess
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29 Jul 2024, 12:24 am

Male privilege certainly exists. I’ve dealt with a fair amount of discrimination, gender-based violence, and harassment, but I’ve experienced white privilege, too. That doesn’t mean that all white people have it easy, and it doesn’t mean that men do, either, but there is a disparity in different arenas - some obvious, some not-so-obvious - which leads to the reality: there’s not an even playing field.

Just a few thoughts:

As I noted in the beginning of the thread:

Quote:
This 2018 article talks about the leadership gap among men and women:
Quote:
Although the United States ranked first in women’s educational attainment on the World Economic Forum’s 2017 Global Gender Gap Index of 144 countries, it ranked 19th in women’s economic participation and opportunity and 96th in women’s political empowerment.

The unevenness in leadership roles has played out in politics.

The overturning of Roe v. Wade is another thing to consider which has led to women not having full bodily autonomy.

Religion also plays a role because many religions are largely patriarchal and don’t have female clergy. God, like many other high-ranking authority figures, is typically depicted as male.

Women are statistically more likely to experience sexual harassment/violence.

The main point is that men, in general, are privileged because they have more (and have always had more) status in various sectors of society.

Sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, having disabilities, being in poverty, etc. leads to discrimination and, at least to some degree, privilege for those who aren’t in these demographics. I tend to think about this stuff in terms of intersectionality while keeping in mind that we’re all individuals with unique experiences and struggles.



cyberdad
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29 Jul 2024, 1:26 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
The sexism that has occurred in this very thread (and many, many others) says a lot. Sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, having disabilities, being in poverty, etc. leads to discrimination as well as privilege for those who aren’t in these demographics. I tend to think about this stuff in terms of intersectionality while keeping in mind that we’re all individuals with unique experiences and struggles.


there was a female CEO appointed to a major company in Australia who said she was able to bring up 4 children while working a 12hr day every day for years. there are also females who write about their experience as front line soldiers. All of this indicates females are just as capable as males in any role, whether it be leadership or protecting the country.

But is this always ideal? Currently there's a new female director where I work who after a couple of years of tenure is having a a baby. So she get's 12months paid leave. So they appoint a interim director (another female) and (guess what) she works 2 months and announces she's pregnant. Suddenly the head honcho (who is also female) quickly assesses the talent pool and all the remaining potentials are females aged 23-40. So she respond by hiring a male interim director from elsewhere. In government and universities there's an understanding if you come from the private sector and you are a 20-40 yr old female then there is a good chance you are coming to take advantage of the generous maternity leave arrangements. While this entitlement is perfectly acceptable, the consequences of hiring females (even when you yourself are female) are not always ideal.



Last edited by cyberdad on 29 Jul 2024, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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29 Jul 2024, 1:30 am

cyberdad wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
The sexism that has occurred in this very thread (and many, many others) says a lot. Sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, having disabilities, being in poverty, etc. leads to discrimination as well as privilege for those who aren’t in these demographics. I tend to think about this stuff in terms of intersectionality while keeping in mind that we’re all individuals with unique experiences and struggles.

there was a female CEO appointed to a major company in Australia who said she was able to bring up 4 children while working a 12hr day every day for years. there are also females who write about their experience as front line soldiers. All of this indicates females are just as capable as males in any role, whether it be leadership or protecting the country.
That doesn’t change overall trends or the reality of privilege in its various forms and manifestations.



cyberdad
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29 Jul 2024, 1:37 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
That doesn’t change overall trends or the reality of privilege.

the roots of privilege in hiring practices are manifold. In terms of leadership there is a diverse range of backgrounds of leaders compared to 20 years ago (just look at the democrat party who have had a black president and a female vice president (and possible future president) of colour.



TwilightPrincess
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29 Jul 2024, 1:45 am

^ It means that things may be improving, but they still aren’t where they need to be.

It’s not solely about hiring practices but society as a whole, including things I already mentioned as well as stuff like beliefs and values. Given the pervasive sexism female candidates (and female members of WP) experience, it’s clear that we still have a ways to go.