Societal Standards vs WP Rules about criticizing religions

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ASPartOfMe
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Yesterday, 8:05 am

People want to talk about religion because they are interested in the topic.

Yes, Wrong Planet is used to avoid dealing with the challenges of being autistic. If done in moderation it is a good thing because it is unhealthy to be thinking about challenges 24/7.

I expect long arguments about language definitions to continue of WP. This is an Autism forum.


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blitzkrieg
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Yesterday, 9:44 am

Devoted wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is usual for threads to get derailed. It bothered me at first until I realized I was doing it also. Why it happens so often here? My guess is executive dysfunction.


Ah, gotcha. I like having things all super organized.... And yeah, I got pulled along with the derailing in the other thread, and I apologized to Blitz (I thought it was considered good manners to apologize for derailing; I didn't realize I was being silly by doing so), and tried to get it back on track, and failed miserably, lol.

It's also gonna take some getting used to, to have comments disappear. 8O
How do y'all handle that??? lol
In re-reading a few of my comments, they no longer make sense, because the original comment is gone (like my reference earlier to processing new hurt on this thread). It's taking a bit longer than I expected, to become acclimated to this place.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Catholics criticize Catholicism all the time, Jews Judaism etc. Outsiders doing it gets tricky. In recent years the idea that no outsiders should opine about groups because they do not have the lived experience has gained currency. I have never agreed with that. Sometimes outsiders have insights that insiders do not because insiders are too close to a situation. That said if an outsider feels the need to criticize a group or religion they need to do their research and proceed with caution.


Agreed. On all counts.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Obviously religion is a personal and emotional subject.


Which is why I ultimately understand if something I've said brings on an emotional response from someone, and they lash out at me. I don't hold it against them, because I'm upset, too, and we're sharing that experience (albeit from opposite sides, like tug-of-war). I don't intend to provoke (I try to phrase things very carefully), yet I understand that the nature of this subforum can result in overwhelmingly emotional reactions.

ChicagoLiz wrote:
There are a lot of terms being used without definition, which makes this entire thread hard to read.

[...]

I think that people need to better explain what they're talking about, to clarify what they mean.


Yeaaah, I found that out, the hard way, on Blitz's Virgin Mary thread (I had no idea I was using certain words the wrong way, until definitions were provided, and even still, I misinterpreted at times). :cry:
But then, like Dox pointed out, we'd all get lost in definitions. So.... Fun in getting lost in definitions, or fun in not knowing how others are using words?


You didn't have to apologize for posting in my thread, devoted. Others might have been a bit hostile in that thread towards you, but I welcome all souls to my threads - and the derailing thing wasn't a big deal for me personally, I'm not too bothered about that type of thing. I don't mind threads that develop organically. :)



blitzkrieg
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Yesterday, 9:47 am

League_Girl wrote:
Words lose meaning fast when they start to be used for other things.

Calling homosexuality a lifestyle implies homophobia and lack of tolorance because of its history of how they were treated. They have been beaten, killed, disowned. It used to be illegal too.

Imagine trying to reclaim the N word back to its original meaning. You can explain all you want what it actually means while everyone else will be holding their ears going " luh luh luh, I am not listening to your justficatuon of your racism" about using the word.

If we are going to use the term lifesyle in a literal sense, being straight is a lifestyle when you act on it. Having sex is a lifestyle and having children. After all, relationships are a choucwcabd so is having families. See whay I dud here? I love my straight lifestyle. :lol:


I often use words with their literal meanings in mind. I'm totally not autistic. /s

:lol:



Jakki
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Yesterday, 11:04 am

Lololzzz.. what a opportunity..finally a thread where critizing Christians could be acceptable ....
What do you think ,that the Moslems were thinking , When the Crusades started back in the day,,?
(These people are bringing something nice)? written cynically. How many Islamic peoples were annihilated by people who were wearing metal suits of armour . Claiming to be acting on behalf of their own faith.The best weapons of the Western world . And the Moslems held their ground . Now we have Israel another ? Christain/ judaic faith country .
So while these people did not represent all Christians , ( right wing fanatics ) still think they are ? Whether it is a
Old genocide, by the crusaders or a new one by the IDF . People seem to love to conflate religion with Warfare .
Am honestly not thinking people like to die . from whatever. But somehow Warfare seens to be our leaders? means to a end. That is not healthy for hunan beings . (just an another opinion)


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Cornflake
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Yesterday, 1:26 pm

Dox47 wrote:
ChicagoLiz wrote:
There are a lot of terms being used without definition, which makes this entire thread hard to read.

Conservative doesn't describe the current Republican party, for example, so when that term is used, what is meant by it? Christianity encompasses a very large number of different sects with very different belief structures. Which ones are being referenced? Which ones are being ignored? Jewish: does that mean religiously/culturally/politically?

I think that people need to better explain what they're talking about, to clarify what they mean.

I would agree, but then fighting over the definitions will go on for pages, it's kind of the whole playbook around here.
Regrettably true - but what to do? It comes with the territory. :lol:


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Yesterday, 1:26 pm

If I might be permitted a duplicate post, already made to "the other thread" but it has some relevance here -

Devoted wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Devoted wrote:
Please forgive my reluctance to elaborate. I have already been censored and reprimanded in this thread, regarding the topic of homosexuality. Respectfully, Cornflake, I do not wish to risk a second offense.
Thank you for your revealing honesty.
My honesty is that my right to free speech on this forum is limited, as evident by my earlier post being censored, without asking me for clarification. I feel as though words were put in my mouth, which was used as a justification to silence me.
I illustrated to you how what you'd posted was functionally identical to the bigoted: black men shouldn't be {something} because {reasons} and was removed on that basis.
Note that the rest of your post remains unaltered.

I don't want to get sucked further into debating your world view with its lofty church teachings of sinner vs. sin etc., as if they were somehow universal and applicable to everyone. They're simply what you believe, nothing more - and of course you're welcome to believe whatever you want.
But it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to uncritically tag along with it, and doubly so when expecting the belief to be protected from criticism.

As regards freedom of speech and criticizing religion generally -

"Freedom of Speech" refers to the interference of government with the expressions of its citizens.
It does not apply to a private website governed by a rule-set which defines acceptable behavior, where certain content may be censured or removed when failing to meet the conditions of membership as defined by those rules.

Certain things are not permitted on WP - racism, transphobia, personal attacks and so on.
But what is permissible is the examination and criticism of belief systems, philosophies, political views, etc. and while those things are not protected, their proponents are.
Thus, "this Cheesemaker cult is ridiculous because {reasons}" is permissible, but "Cheesemakers are stupid because {reasons}" is not.

Religions, political ideologies, belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. are lifestyle choices and not protected from examination and criticism. It's permissible to ask "why", and seek explanations or justifications for aspects of the belief - but only when done without ridiculing, demeaning, or attacking the believer.

Inherent, inalienable states such as nationality, skin color, sexuality, physical or mental conditions, etc. are protected attributes and while discussions about and around them are permitted, they cannot be held up for criticism.
Where a belief system is inherently critical of those attributes or other disallowed topics on WP, members subscribing to the belief are expected to self-censor their comments to avoid criticism or rule-breaks.


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Dox47
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Yesterday, 5:36 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Regrettably true - but what to do? It comes with the territory. :lol:


It does, but it sure is a drag on conversation when you have to engage in pages of debate on what the words mean before you can even get to the underlying argument. It's not even new, Orwell called it back in Politics and the English Language , but it feels like it's gotten worse in the years since the various critical theories leaked out of academia, with their postmodern views on the truth and Marxist dialectical DNA regarding language.


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Yesterday, 6:29 pm

Cornflake wrote:
I illustrated to you how what you'd posted was functionally identical to the bigoted: black men shouldn't be {something} because {reasons} and was removed on that basis.
Note that the rest of your post remains unaltered.


I understood the reprimand. I just disagree with the reasoning/paralleled example, that's all. And I do very much appreciate that everything else remains. :)



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Yesterday, 7:16 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
You didn't have to apologize for posting in my thread, devoted. Others might have been a bit hostile in that thread towards you, but I welcome all souls to my threads - and the derailing thing wasn't a big deal for me personally, I'm not too bothered about that type of thing. I don't mind threads that develop organically. :)


:heart:
Thank you.



Fnord
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Yesterday, 7:20 pm

Judaism is no more inherently violent than Islam or Christianity.

Violent people will use any excuse to "justify" the violence they commit; a primary excuse being "Religious Beliefs".



Dox47
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Yesterday, 10:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
Violent people will use any excuse to "justify" the violence they commit; a primary excuse being "Religious Beliefs".


It's not limited to violence, or religious beliefs, just look at the jerks online who think being on the "right side" of whatever issue gives them license to act like psychopaths.


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