An All-Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving God...

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The fact is though that atheists go on what has been proven and fact and religious people go on Dogma, blind faith and not unusually threats. Not one religious person in the world today can prove it.

Good that GODtm doesnt play favourites though. I can go on dibelieving him and not waste my time with religion and he will accept me just as much as the bible-bashers. Though im sure it says in the bible that he does play favourites as he seemed to help his followers regularly in the olden days when there wasnt much in the way of recorded history but now he seems to have gone all quite for some reason. Maybe it has abandoned you but i think it plain just didnt exist in the first place and was made up as a way of controlling others.

Look at what has happened with Japanese and Chinese emperors in the past when they were thought of as gods that could do no wrong. Though i understand some peoples pride and/or close-mindedness would stop them from accepting what they were brainwashed and brought up on by family, friends etc might not be true.

<i>“Especially natural disasters. Humans are often stupid enough to build on low sea level, on top of faults in the earth's crust, and other things like that.”</i>

So you are passing the blame to humans?! Natural disasters are our own damn fault!!
What about disease, birth defects, genetic disorders?

<i>“God doesn't play favorites.”</i>

From the pattern of natural and human-created disasters, I agree. Not only that, but God doesn't seem to be involved whatsoever.

<i>“But the Bible does confront issues like this, which most people ignore. Like the book of Job”</i>

Yeah, Job asks God “Why did you do all these terrible things to me?” and His response is “How dare you even ask!”. A more accurate response would be “Well, I got into a bet with the Devil” (which He did). You still think he’s all-loving?

This is what I believe.

1. God is omni-present.

2.God is knowing good and bad.

3.God is merciful,gracious,slow to anger,and abundant in loving-kindness,and truth.

I think god is All-Entertained.

This reminds me of a comic strip called Lost In Space, making fun of a fantasy universe called Warhammer. Here, the Orks are arguing about whether their god Gork truly knows all...

It was a test for mankind that Adam and Eve failed. Mankind was not created flawed and destructive we became flawed and destructive in the end.

You are confusing Love with happiness and pain. God did not cause pain, We became pain for Our actions in the Garden.

The test in the Garden was to see if Adam and Eve would not betray God. In the end they did and that is why We fall short in the understanding's and knowledge's of God.

But if mankind could be corrupted, then God must have created a capacity for corruption within human nature. Also, it is quite evident in the bible that God indeed plays favourites, with his 'chosen people' led to freedom, the nations he favoured winning when God's lightning smote the enemy army and left no man breathing. I raised this point to a philosophy class with a few christians and a teacher who also teaches religious studies. Nobody replied that when it was claimed God was impartial. I know I shouldn't refer to the scriptures as that is not what sophist wanted in the thread, but it was inevitable. I don't believe in a god that is all knowing, all loving or all powerful for I do not believe in one. However, I am not going to stop others from believing what they will, for while I am a man of probability and go with the more likely option, the more likely option has often been wrong and I have no mandate to tell others what to think. Else, betting offices would be without purpose since the most likely winner would be the favourite and if the favourite always won, the outcome would be obvious. Also, while not religious I am a supporter of religion in general (for reasons it's too late in the night for me to go into) so I don't want this post to be misinterpreted as bashing any God or religion. I just thought I could post a few counterpoints that I quickly thought up and be on my way.

I believe that God is perfect, all knowing and loving.

I think that because he (and I use this term for simplisity, I feel God is beyond gender lables as is any soul) IS all loving that hell is for thouse that deny the extistance of him even in his presence. I also feel that all sins are punished in some way. Karma would be the closest thing to that I suppose. I think that all religions have a shot at getting in to heaven, not just mine, and that our souls wont settle down for just going on to heaven with out several lives of learning as mortals.
I also think that there are souls that are pure evil out there. I think they are from the place that we refer to as "hell" and they are trying to "get" more souls to become evil.

I think that the existance of evil is only because with out bad there could be nothing good in contrast. you know, the yin and the yang. The existance of ballance must be there inorder for the universe to function.

Now I know that all this doesnt even come CLOSE to the Christian doctrine that I am a member of. And I KNOW that the church isnt ever gonna accept reincarnation as part of the doctrine. Nor are they going to say that anyone but their own religion is going to heaven. But I still believe the way that I do, and I think that being openminded in matters religious is one path to heaven. Maybe....

but shouldnt our spiritual path be ours and ours alone to determine?

If you are a gamer, it may be easier to think of God as the Master Programmer. God being the creator of this program created it (possibly) to test our durability in obtaining skills and strategy so that we can move to the next Level in the game (whatever that will be).

Each path is totally up to us. We can play the game with great compassion or as violent as we wish. The choices are up to us, each path we take is decided by each one of us of our own freewill. The challenges we will face on that path is already known by the Master Programmer, as He was the one that created the “Game” and knows all variations and outcomes to each and every level. (sans the All-Seeing/All-Knowing thing)

If the Creator/Programmer thinks we are worthy and skillful enough or perhaps because He favors us, He may allow us to play His most challenging Game. A Special Edition game. This game would perhaps mean you would go through the most perilous and demanding adventures known to mankind. In this game you may lose everything and everyone you pick up along the way, but if you prevail, you will be a winner! Bonus Points Galore!!

After all the Game was never about how rich, famous or powerful you become (when you exit the game you take nothing with you, just the way you enter the game)…It all depends on how you react to each and every situation (good or bad). The goal of the game is to move to the next Level but the next level is Unknown – there is no known replay button (although perhaps it is marked "reincarnation") but there is a popular strategy book that gives clues (A sort of Idiot’s Manual To “The Big Game”). All ages can play and at anytime a player can change the direction of the game.

I know this is kind of a matrix-y kind of observation, but it just works for me

What Monastic said really makes sense. God designed the world to work and He does care for us, but we were given Free Will, which means we can take what He has given us and do whatever we want with that. I'm not saying that there won't be consequences to our actions, but God doesn't force us to do anything.

As far as the paths to heaven thing, I think CS Lewis had a good idea and an explanation. In his well-known fantasy books, The Chronicles of Narnia (hereafter abbreviated as TCoN), Narnia was symbolic of the Christian life. The object of Christians is to be able to get into Narnia, but there are several different ways of getting there. In each of the books, the children enter Narnia through some different way: a wardrobe, at the train station, magical rings, a gymnasium door, a nautical painting, etc. Aslan is able to keep the children surpised about when they enter Narnia because it is when and how they least expect it. Same thing with God.

Going back to the Free Will thing, it was a gift from God. It was Tolkien who had the right idea this time (not that CS Lewis didn't...), but the Dwarves were originally created with no Free Will. In essential, they were puppets of Aule (the Valar who made them). Iluvatar (or Eru... or the Divine Authority- basically God of Middle-earth) gave the Dwarves the gift of Free Will. Without Free Will, life would be controlled, obedient and quite frankly, boring. We would be puppets of God, not creatures with minds of our own. But God wanted to be able to have a relationship with people and not a forced relationship, either. (You can never really force anyone to be your friend- it simply doesn't work.) In order for the relationship to work, Man needed to have Free Will.

So... we have Free Will. Does that mean we can do whatever we want? No, not exactly. We are given enormous amounts of Free Will, but with that comes a great Responsibility. We are called to obey the laws set forth for us, be kind to others, etc. If we didn't have Free Will, we wouldn't have Responsibility. The two of them go together and you cannot have one without the other.

And yes, I know I did captialize words that would not normally be capitalized. It was all deliberate.

It would be if you're unable to see anything positive in the world.
Same difference.

Jesus asked the same question, and got no response. Of course, both Job and Jesus were asking the wrong questions. The perserverance of either is what really mattered in the end. Each of those stories is actually about us, not God.

Thank you for being one the few people who realizes this. I have also used the analogy of an author to the peice he writes, which works quite well fro me, but I can't find the thread I've originally written it on.

I believe that God is all of the above. One, God is all perfect because He wouldn't have been able to save us if He wasn't. And for the argument of knowing what is right and wrong, God made us with a sense of basic morals. For instance, people go to jail when they murder someone, or steal, or rape, etc. Otherwise, people would be running around committing all this crime without a basic sense of morals. Another thing is that God is all knowing. God knew that we were going to be sinners, and besides, things aren't as they seem in peoples' lives (like bad moments could turn around and be things that result in good things in peoples' lives). God knows of things prior to when they're going to happen, like with the Bible. He knew that people were going to try to destroy it (and Christianity), yet, somehow, someway they were all preserved. Do you ever wonder why Jews are the only civilization in history that have been persecuted so much, has gotten their country back, been in slavery a number of times, and have gotten their language back, after being dispersed around the world for around a 1000 years? It's all in the Bible; I don't believe that if God gave prophetic word about all these events, He didn't know about it. And besides, most of these events that happened to the Jews (like getting their country and language back and everything) are recorded in history books, and so have some proof that they actually occured. Other examples are things that have happened in other peoples' lives all around the world. God has provided huge changes in countless peoples' lives, including my own. Another thing is that God is all loving. If God wasn't all loving, He wouldn't have waited this long and He wouldn't have given many people second chances; He could have just destroyed us. God has compassion for us, because (obviously) good things happen to all people, and He rebukes and punishes His children accordingly in order to learn. Most people find satisfaction when they are truly saved and get to know God, and Christiantity is the most different from any other religion I've heard of. God is very amazing.

Aspiegirl, this is not a criticism of you or your beliefs, just your arguments. Just trying to inspire some thought here. Not that I have 100% conviction in what I'm saying, but it's food for thought at least, like global scepticism.

What did God save us from? Sin? We still seem pretty sinful to me. With the majority of people, more bad things happen than good things, hell, I'm one of them. God can feel free to sve me, but... As for God being perfect, to create any form of imperfection is an imperfection in itself, A perfect being, by definition, could only create perfection due to it's standards. It would have no use for an imperfect creation. While we can't see the world from a perfect deity's perspective, from ours I can see it is not perfect, so it is quite likely that the world is not perfect. In fact, if God is perfect, only one state of perfect can exist as to be perfect, all of your qualities must be perfect and to deviate is to be imperfect. The only thing God would be capable of doing is creating perfection (though he possesses the power if not the will to create imperfection) and consequently all God would do is self-replicate.

The argument for morality crops up again, about everyone having innate ideas of right and wrong. How comes that many people do NOT see murder as wrong? Many have murdered, been tried and freely admitted murdering as they could see nothing wrong with it. In fact, if morality is innate, put in our heads by God, why do we all have different morals? Some believe killing or stealing is right under certain circumstances, others that it is always wrong. A perfect God would be unchanging, so would not change his morals to place in our heads. The argument for morality simply does not hold up when you bring up that people with other moralities exist.

If God knows of things we will do a priori like you say, then by definition, we don't have free will which we are taught God gifted us with. When he 'designed' the world and humanity, he would have known the exact consequences, every action of any generation due to the fact he is omniscient. He knew what we'd do when he designed us, he designed us to act in the way we do. He created the environment and genetics, and those things govern our actions and thoughts. On one hand you have free will, on the other you have omniscience. The bible cannot choose it seems, so claims both.

Oh yes, the Bible and Christianity survived despite people trying to destroy it. I mean, it's not like Judaism has ever been attacked. The Ko'ran (apologies if mis-spelt) still exists as do Jews, despite all the anti-semitic persecution and genocide. With the holocaust, the Nazi Party and Hitler attempted to wipe out the Jews but they survive today. By your logic that Christianity still exists so must be preserved by god, the same must apply to Judaism and every religion that has ever been discriminated against.

Thursday, a Christian talked to my philosophy class. He talked about how finding God revolutionised his life and we should all embrace him. I readily admit that having faith can change your life, holding a belief can change your life but that doesn't mean it's right. Religion provides moral fibre which is one reason I support religion, even if my thinking means I cannot embrace it. However, seeking salvation and refraining from sin may be positive, but the ends you are trying to reach may not exist. A change in perspective doesnt mean the first perspective is wrong and the second is right, it just means you've changed. Faith changing lives does not mean God exists.

As for God being all loving? When he supposedly flooded the world for 40 days and nights, you can bet that many children and newborn babies were free from sin, an all loving God wouldn't have slaughtered them and almost everything else on the planet. He wouldn't smite armies, rather impede their progress. In fact, an all loving God would not be angry or wrathful by definition, so sending plagues and destroying things is NOT the actions of a loving God. Someone who loves will make others see the errors of their ways (if there are some) instead of smiting them. Punishing his children in order for them to learn? A dead child learns nothing and forgets all.

A perfect being cannot create imperfection. An all knowing God cannot provide free will and be angry due to a priori knowledge. An all powerful God would have power to change free will. An all loving God would not get angry. An all loving and all powerful God would purge evil.


I'm not trying to stifle anyone's faith, I know that if someone truly has faith then it is ungrounded yet can never be uprooted. I'm just trying to get everyone, whether atheist or theist to think more, and if this means an atheist rejects the notion of God further and a theist reaches a greater understanding of God, then I am happy for it.

yet again another wonderful peace of work from SuXEed neraly every thing i've been tring to say in thorght but in words.

I voted none of above because i don't know what god is. Unknowable maybe.

Almost perfect, almost in total control, almost all knowing. Completely loving.

Thagomiser and Namiko talk about

Our freedom to not follow instinct, our freedom to do something other than reproduce, etc. It is a huge freedom. But I don't like the sound of "responsibility". Never have done.

I wonder whether maybe the so often negative/destructive consequences of our freedom are actually because we forget that we are free. I forget almost all the time. I'm not talking about the politically dodgy ideas about being free to make our lives into anything we want, if we want it enough; the idea that if we only look at life in the right way it will be a marvellous life, etc, but the extraordinary fact that we are not obliged to run after the nearest dog on heat, nor spray hormones at every corner, etc etc.
Just wondering whether remembering that our freedom was obtained at great cost to our bodies too, might make us behave differently. That our bodies, which used to be one with the rest of our animal being/life, have now become driven, used, ignored, resented, objectified, ridiculed, abandoned, tortured, poisoned, manipulated for entertainment. Think about how a cat jumps, an antelope runs, a bird flies, a monkey swings, and what most humans are like.

That sacrifice is worth it for the freedom we have, isn't it? The freedom not to just eat, sleep, have sex, and fight.

Last edited by ouinon on 31 Jan 2008, 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

I agree wholeheartedly with George Carlin....

to paraphrase....

"There is this all seeing, all knowing, all powerful force in the universe.. and he loves you, he loves you, he loves you.... and he wants your money...."

'nuff said....