Philosophies: Liberalism vs. Conservatism

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21 Nov 2007, 5:46 pm

In reference to Averick saying there is no separation of Church and state (except financial and ideological and personal)

Also that both of these cases are true:

Religious views influence political views.
political views influence religious views.

B, in my opinion is sad.

Thanks Ragtime for being concise.

Last edited by iamnotaparakeet on 21 Nov 2007, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

greenblue
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21 Nov 2007, 5:50 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Religious views influence political views.

In this day and age it shouldn't be that way.

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iamnotaparakeet
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21 Nov 2007, 5:53 pm

greenblue wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Religious views influence political views.

In this day and age it shouldn't be that way.

Really? What day and age is it?

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21 Nov 2007, 5:55 pm

Current times.

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iamnotaparakeet
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21 Nov 2007, 5:58 pm

greenblue wrote:

Current times.

How is the present any different than the past?

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21 Nov 2007, 6:09 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Current times.

How is the present any different than the past?

Scientific advances, social changes, more knowledge gaining discrediting past beliefs towards superstition and supernatural and stuff like that. Asperger's Syndrome, etc.

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spdjeanne
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21 Nov 2007, 6:49 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Spdjeanne, the parable refers to entry into the kingdom of Heaven, not the Heavenly rewards for good works.

why?

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21 Nov 2007, 7:08 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

Well then what do you make of this verse?

Mathew 20:8-16'

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.' When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage. How when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage. And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?' So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

What I make of the passage may be irrelevant, so I listed a variety of scholars. Call it whatever you like.

You are appealing to the authority of commentaries. Why should I believe the commentators over my own interpretation? Are you sure that they are more likely to be right?

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21 Nov 2007, 7:12 pm

spdjeanne wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Spdjeanne, the parable refers to entry into the kingdom of Heaven, not the Heavenly rewards for good works.

why?

Would you believe me if I told you? We've had debates in the past, and you haven't believed any evidence or proof which I've given you for my points. So far, you've rejected 100% of them. Kinda makes me not want to waste my time.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 21 Nov 2007, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Nov 2007, 7:38 pm

greenblue wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Religious views influence political views.

In this day and age it shouldn't be that way.

Unless you are going to argue that religion shouldn't exist, there is no way religion and politics can be kept entirely separate. Separating religion and politics would require a separation of morality and politics; which is a matter of impossibility.

Quote:

Do conservatives have to be necessarily christians or religious?

In the US it tends to be sort of true, but not necessarily. All you have to do is promote ideas that are in line with conservative ideas and there are multiple reasons that are non-religious to do so. This is seen in areas outside of the social issues, as economic conservative ideas would be promoted by the business crowd and foreign policy ideas by non internationalists.

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21 Nov 2007, 7:50 pm

Actually, I consider this thread sort of stupid. I think that dividing the political spectrum so simply is ridiculous as different issues should attract different thinkers. I mean, what about libertarians, national socialists and other groups? Not only that, but really, I don't see a reason to attack a cognitive framework in such a manner. Instead more of a focus should be given to a more sophisticated attack, such as against the political framework as attacking the individuals who hold the views is merely ad hominem.

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21 Nov 2007, 8:03 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

greenblue wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Religious views influence political views.

In this day and age it shouldn't be that way.

It is not necesarily like that, I suppose many conservative christians in the US may see that as separation of morality from politics.

I believe secularism is or should be better in any modern society, at the same time I believe it promotes more the freedom of religion, which it could benefit the diversity, especially the minority.

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21 Nov 2007, 8:07 pm

greenblue wrote:

It is not necesarily like that, I suppose many conservative christians in the US may see that as separation of morality from politics.

They do see it as a separation of morality from politics. If God is their morality than God is their politics as well. To say it is not necessarily like that seems like sophistry in many of their eyes. I mean, let me ask you: how are they going to have politics without a moral basis for these actions?

Quote:

I believe secularism is or should be better in a modern society, at the same time I believe it promotes more the freedom of religion, which it would benefit the diversity, especially the minority.

Yes, and you have a different moral belief. How can you tell people who think that God should fill every man's day and that God is the greatest thing in existence that this God should be restrained and shoved away from public prominence? The idea seems to be ridiculous on its head to them.

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21 Nov 2007, 8:10 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Yeah, that's my point, it seems to be a view of just two ways, you are either this or that. (kinda like black and white thinking)

Quote:

Not only that, but really, I don't see a reason to attack a cognitive framework in such a manner. Instead more of a focus should be given to a more sophisticated attack, such as against the political framework as attacking the individuals who hold the views is merely ad hominem.

Possibly with the apparent view that not many people, I guess it could be on WP in this case, may not conform to the conservative ideals, however this is only apparent. As many people don't express or care about this sort of thing.

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21 Nov 2007, 8:57 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

greenblue wrote:

How can you tell people who think that God should fill every man's day and that God is the greatest thing in existence that this God should be restrained and shoved away from public prominence? The idea seems to be ridiculous on its head to them.

Because some people don't believe in that god, or some do not believe in any god, and this is our right to choose what we believe, it is not oppression to have a secular, non-bias society where if that person wants to be religious, they can do it on their own time, but it is oppression when their religion is force-fed to someone else through legislation.
In other words, lack of god in politics is not discrimination because they can still worship their god or practice their religion on their own terms, they just won't be given special rights and the government will not favor their religion over that of someone else. It would remain non-partisan. A christian is no better than a budhist, atheist, jew, muslim, pagan, hindu, taoist, or anything else. No better, no worse. Equal.
So, are all you theocrats packing your bags for the next kkk rally?

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21 Nov 2007, 9:00 pm

You do know that the current conservative "my god is better than your god" "screw freedom of religion, mine should reign supreme and every one else should fall subject" ideology your following was taken from the KKK and white/christian nationalist hate groups don't you? That's where Bush learned it, he just cut out the race rhetoric and used only the religious superiority part.
So in a way, conservatives support the KKK.

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