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monty
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13 Dec 2007, 11:34 am

Anybody see the Motorcycle Diaries? It was a movie about pre-revolutionary Che. Good story, largely disconnected with the second part of his life, although it gives some food for thought about why a doctor from Argentina would become a revolutionary.



Reodor_Felgen
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13 Dec 2007, 12:15 pm

monty wrote:
Anybody see the Motorcycle Diaries? It was a movie about pre-revolutionary Che. Good story, largely disconnected with the second part of his life, although it gives some food for thought about why a doctor from Argentina would become a revolutionary.


It's a great movie, but it definetely doesn't reflect how Che really was.


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monty
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13 Dec 2007, 3:41 pm

I'm not a scholar on Che, not sure if it reflects the first part of his life. I'm not arguing that he ended up as a brute, merely observing that some revolutionaries-gone-bad start off as normal, compassionate people.



marshall
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13 Dec 2007, 4:08 pm

I think it's stupid to look at it in black and white. He did fight for the poor and I believe his motives were sincere. Yet he was also a hateful fanatic who killed people that opposed him. In the end his vision was a failure. I'm pretty ambivalent towards him.



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14 Dec 2007, 1:54 am

well communism is a flawed logic
a nice one-but it cannot work
Ants and Bees can make it work but they don't think like we do
its human nature to want to be the best, thus it cannot work



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14 Dec 2007, 2:12 am

monty wrote:
I'm not a scholar on Che, not sure if it reflects the first part of his life. I'm not arguing that he ended up as a brute, merely observing that some revolutionaries-gone-bad start off as normal, compassionate people.


Very good point. I saw the movie as well. I think it just goes to show that Che was a complex person with many dimentions to his personality. Most people are capable of being very good, and very evil. The movie "Crash" makes that point in a very entertaining way.


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14 Dec 2007, 5:53 am

You can always support Che and capitalism at the same time. Just sell Che T-shirts. That way you make stinking capitalist profits while honoring an anti-capitalist hero. :lol:


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14 Dec 2007, 10:35 pm

Anubis wrote:
He is a symbol, an icon of the fight of communism against capitalism, and the liberation of the people of South America especially.

A general revolutionary symbol.

War and military action is sometimes the quickest and only viable way to bring about revolution and change. I wouldn't call war primitive, not with all the technology that we have now.


You are little close but it is a communist symbol.

Soviet Union Russia carry the red star
China carry the red star
North Korea carry the red star

The red star is a symbol of communism.



Kilroy
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14 Dec 2007, 10:41 pm

DrizzleMan wrote:
You can always support Che and capitalism at the same time. Just sell Che T-shirts. That way you make stinking capitalist profits while honoring an anti-capitalist hero. :lol:


filthy capitalist swine
I only have a che shirt as it was a gift...



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14 Dec 2007, 10:48 pm

I find utopian socialism very appealing actually.

http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=354


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monty
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15 Dec 2007, 12:04 am

DrizzleMan wrote:
You can always support Che and capitalism at the same time. Just sell Che T-shirts. That way you make stinking capitalist profits while honoring an anti-capitalist hero. :lol:


Careful, now. That reminds me of the old quote - Lenin I think ... when the capitalists are rounded up to be hanged, they will try to out-bid each other on contracts to supply the rope... and the revolution will be televised, brought to you in four parts by GE, free from commercial interruption.


DrizzleMan wrote:
I find utopian socialism very appealing actually.


Utopian isms are no where to be found.



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15 Dec 2007, 5:20 pm

Anubis wrote:
He is a symbol, an icon of the fight of communism against capitalism, and the liberation of the people of South America especially.

A general revolutionary symbol.

War and military action is sometimes the quickest and only viable way to bring about revolution and change. I wouldn't call war primitive, not with all the technology that we have now.


..... I fail to understand how he "liberated" them by putting a gun to their heads and supporting a system of violent oppression upon them. Though many in Cuba likely supported him either because they were used to being abused and knew no other way, or perhaps out of fear (as well as overly-emotional propaganda designed to attack the follower's critical thinking constructs within their brain, lead them around by blind emotions, and dummy them down to make them easier to control.... Does that type of propaganda sound kinda familiar to anyone?... Does is start to hit close to home for anyone here? If not then it's time to stop sleeping and wake up.... Because I can guarantee you no tyrant ever took over a nation over night, they followed a 10 step process to national transformation of their government).
War, as unfortunate as it may be, is sometimes necessary given certain situations, that I will agree to (although probably not in Che's case). But I'd still have to call war primitive, I don't define primitive as a technological set back, I'd define primitive as barbaric and inhumane behavior.



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28 Dec 2007, 10:25 pm

Here is Big Howard, wearing a Che Guevara t shirt. I wonder if he is trying to make a comedic political statement of sorts?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTZHBG4E4Jc&feature=related[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTZHBG4E ... re=related



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28 Dec 2007, 10:35 pm

And in this one, the cops are taking him away at the end, possibly because of the Che Guevara t shirt

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQlcujHxK0&feature=related[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQlcujH ... re=related



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29 Dec 2007, 1:57 am

Kilroy wrote:
well communism is a flawed logic
a nice one-but it cannot work
Ants and Bees can make it work but they don't think like we do
its human nature to want to be the best, thus it cannot work


its human nature to want to be the best, but its doesnt work? if it is nature....isnt nature more powerful than your thoughts on human optimism?
is your pessimism that makes you say things should be as sad and as happy as they are. never making an effort to make things better...
you are just lazy. and a lazy thinker, a conformist. and those are not attacks.
you can see it in your words, so change, because the world needs positive people.



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Che...
although i dont agree with communism i know he fought for the poor and at points might have made mistakes, he is not an angel but it's not a devil, he is human.
he is just a fighter that died for what he believed in and created great awareness that if you want you can.



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29 Dec 2007, 10:27 pm

snake321 wrote:
Anubis wrote:
He is a symbol, an icon of the fight of communism against capitalism, and the liberation of the people of South America especially.

A general revolutionary symbol.

War and military action is sometimes the quickest and only viable way to bring about revolution and change. I wouldn't call war primitive, not with all the technology that we have now.


..... I fail to understand how he "liberated" them by putting a gun to their heads and supporting a system of violent oppression upon them. Though many in Cuba likely supported him either because they were used to being abused and knew no other way, or perhaps out of fear (as well as overly-emotional propaganda designed to attack the follower's critical thinking constructs within their brain, lead them around by blind emotions, and dummy them down to make them easier to control.... Does that type of propaganda sound kinda familiar to anyone?... Does is start to hit close to home for anyone here? If not then it's time to stop sleeping and wake up.... Because I can guarantee you no tyrant ever took over a nation over night, they followed a 10 step process to national transformation of their government).
War, as unfortunate as it may be, is sometimes necessary given certain situations, that I will agree to (although probably not in Che's case). But I'd still have to call war primitive, I don't define primitive as a technological set back, I'd define primitive as barbaric and inhumane behavior.


Emotions are part of what makes people human. Communism appeals where capitalism has become unjust and unfair to the general populace, and where there are huge socio-economic divides.
Communism is very often portrayed as brutal and tyrannical in anti-communist places, some of which is true, some of which is false. Generally, yes, it does suppress freedom to a great degree, economic to the greatest extent, as according to its basic tenets, and then individual and political freedom(Stalinism as a classic example of this). However, it also grants social equality and a usually guaranteed standard of living.

I would not call war primitive. There are some issues which can only be resolved by varying degrees of conflict. Whether it's a fight by one party for independence, freedom, and justice which can only realistically be fought by arms with great haste, rather than by long, slow diplomatic means ; or a war against antagonising, uncompromising rivals... warfare is a neccessary evil which will always plague mankind to some degree, until every human being is happy with what they have, and respects all their fellow human beings. Which will be very far into the future.


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