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Orwell
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25 May 2008, 8:04 pm

Confused-Fish wrote:
grain-and-field wrote:
Do you believe that the human race is constantly evolving and gets smarter and gets larger brains?


actually iq averages are slowly dropping worldwide due to the fact that less intelligent people are far more likely to produce offspring.

False. Do some basic fact-checking before you go spouting this nonsense. Average IQs keep RISING. Google "Flynn effect" if you want more information. The movie "Idiocracy" is not a reliable source for eugenics info.


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NeantHumain
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25 May 2008, 8:40 pm

pbcoll wrote:
twoshots wrote:
LeonKrahe wrote:
grain-and-field wrote:
Do you believe that the human race is constantly evolving and gets smarter and gets larger brains?


Nope. As Orwell mentioned, intelligence and brain size has no selective pressures any longer for us humans, as someone being smart doesn't mean they will have more children and spread their genes across the population faster than say, idiots who don't know how to take birth control measures. So overall as a population, I'd say humanity's intelligence is shrinking.

A relatively small minority of very intelligent people, mostly scientists and engineers, have been advancing our technology. Problem with that is technology increases the number of things humans can do without thinking, to the point where people no longer need to use much intelligence in their daily lives to survive. Just my 2 cents from my drowsy mind.

It's much worse than that. While higher intelligence correlates fairly well with increased material prosperity, the upper classes don't have bebehs while the lower classes spawn 'em left and right. In other words - stupidity is being selected for :!:


It's always refreshing to hear some sense about human evolution - Irresponsibility is also being selected for. Too many people have this beliefs that humanity is evolution's masterpiece and that future humans will be multi-brained starmen and not morons too stupid to use a condom.

This sounds like the plot of that movie Idiocracy.



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25 May 2008, 8:48 pm

Speckles wrote:
Hmm, I tend to disagree with the stupid people breed more = humanity getting stupider idea. Just having more offspring doesn't ensure more long term evolutionary sucess. If the smart people have fewer children, but invest more in them to ensure their success, their genetic line may be just as successful as a stupid line that has many children but invests very little in them. The stupid line will appear to be more successful while times are good. But when some kind of pressure gets applied, like a war, famine, or a decision on who gets to go on a spaceship to colonize a new world, the smart line individuals are going to do better.


Having more offspring does mean more evolutionary success as long as they don't all die or something - even in the Third World it is the poor that have the most children that survive to have children of their own (the only thing that matters from an evolutionary point of view).
At least in the developed world, it's unlikely to get to the point where the children of the poor don't actually survive.
The strategy of having many offspring and investing nothing in them is actually extremely successful - consider the cockroach.


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Orwell
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25 May 2008, 8:52 pm

pbcoll wrote:
The strategy of having many offspring and investing nothing in them is actually extremely successful - consider the cockroach.

Cockroaches are r-selected, humans are K-selected. We operate under different evolutionary strategies.


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26 May 2008, 7:27 am

I have come across some theories suggesting man hasn't been selecting for intelligence since the end of the neolithic age. The idea implies that all progress from that time on is the result of accumulated knowledge passed down from one generation to the next.

Whether that's true or not, man has obviously been in an IQ decline. It could be argued that it began with the fall of Rome or perhaps the French Revolution. It certainly began no later than the early part of the twentieth century when innovation and scientific advances reached the point to where the genetically-unfit (in the Darwinian sense) were able to survive, reproduce and even thrive. Studies indicate that in the last 100 years each successive generation averages about one IQ point lower than the previous.

The advancements and wealth that came, in the period after the Industrial Revolution was firmly established, insulated much of society from the harshness of natural selection. The thing about this is that as society degrades, its ability to maintain this insulation goes down with it. Eventually returning to a state where the unfit die off and only the strong and intelligent survive.

This digression can be avoided. Unfortunately however there doesn't seem to be any effort from any sector of society to halt the trend. In fact they do just the opposite. With the way things look now I believe we will go down much further before the overall quality of man begins to improve.


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26 May 2008, 7:45 am

There is more to effective intelligence than the basic intellectual capacity itself. Many very intelligent people have neither the will nor the motivation for independent thinking and many very intelligent people are trapped in cultural tunnel vision that does not permit them to use their intellectual capacity in a socially beneficial way. The availability of information and a wide spectrum of ideas now flowing more or less freely throughout the world which was not possible even a few score of years ago no doubt has increased not only basic intellect to a degree but also its capability for a wider range of handling new mental material. Obviously this is rather disturbing to governments such as China and some of the more restrictive Muslim countries and is also creeping through the more democratic areas of the world. It will be a contest to see if freedom of information can prevail and foster more incisive use of the intelligence humans have the potential for.



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26 May 2008, 8:21 am

Jacob_Landshire wrote:
Whether that's true or not, man has obviously been in an IQ decline. It could be argued that it began with the fall of Rome or perhaps the French Revolution. It certainly began no later than the early part of the twentieth century when innovation and scientific advances reached the point to where the genetically-unfit (in the Darwinian sense) were able to survive, reproduce and even thrive. Studies indicate that in the last 100 years each successive generation averages about one IQ point lower than the previous.

Really now. Could you link to some of these studies? No, you couldn't, because they DON'T EXIST. Stop making stuff up. Every single piece of research I have ever seen has measured a steady increase in average IQs since the tests were introduced.

Jacob_Landshire wrote:
The advancements and wealth that came, in the period after the Industrial Revolution was firmly established, insulated much of society from the harshness of natural selection. The thing about this is that as society degrades, its ability to maintain this insulation goes down with it. Eventually returning to a state where the unfit die off and only the strong and intelligent survive.

And what evidence do you have that a population separated from evolutionary pressures would spontaneously degrade? More likely would be simply a preservation of the status quo.


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26 May 2008, 11:07 am

Actually although humans delight in their intellect much of it throughout history seems to be devoted to spinning utter nonsense to justify intra-human brutality which is unmatched by any other species. Our vaunted intelligence is well on the way to destroying almost every other species for little or no reason whatsoever with no comprehension that life on Earth is a tightly woven web of the interaction of different kinds of life and when humans have successfully shredded that web they will look in horror at the rapidly increasing impossibility of the planet to sustain life at all - or at least at the level we are familiar with. For the first billions of years of Earth's existence life consisted of mats of single celled life and I suppose a return to that may eventually result in some other novel direction to be explored.



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26 May 2008, 11:12 am

Sand, I doubt we will destroy the planet. When photosynthesis first evolved, it was a major ecological crisis that resulted in a mass extinction. Which was followed by a great diversification period which produced an even richer variety of life. Trees in the Carboniferous period used up so much carbon dioxide in photosynthesis that they nearly eliminated the greenhouse effect and triggered a global ice age that was also accompanied by a mass extinction. Changes in the ecology of the planet don't mean the end of life forever.


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26 May 2008, 11:41 am

Sand wrote:
Actually although humans delight in their intellect much of it throughout history seems to be devoted to spinning utter nonsense to justify intra-human brutality which is unmatched by any other species. Our vaunted intelligence is well on the way to destroying almost every other species for little or no reason whatsoever with no comprehension that life on Earth is a tightly woven web of the interaction of different kinds of life and when humans have successfully shredded that web they will look in horror at the rapidly increasing impossibility of the planet to sustain life at all - or at least at the level we are familiar with. For the first billions of years of Earth's existence life consisted of mats of single celled life and I suppose a return to that may eventually result in some other novel direction to be explored.


Bad choices != less intellect. Our situation today could also be viewed as evidence of increasing intellect; we've gotten so good at stuff that we actually too good at productivity, and need to find ways to offset our excess. Heck, 50 years ago we didn't even know that we were headed towards the kind of difficulty you are describing. As we are now taking steps to fix the problem, we are making better choices then 50 years ago, and so are smarter by your logic. :D



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26 May 2008, 11:51 am

Good for you that you're optimistic. I don't see grounds for it but what the hell - it's better to die happy.



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26 May 2008, 1:01 pm

Here's the first article related to this topic I've found...

Quote:
Dysgenic fertility means that there is a negative correlation between intelligence and number of children. Its presence during the last century has been demonstrated in several countries. We show here that there is dysgenic fertility in the world population quantified by a correlation of − 0.73 between IQ and fertility across nations. It is estimated that the effect of this has been a decline in the world's genotypic IQ of 0.86 IQ points for the years 1950–2000. A further decline of 1.28 IQ points in the world's genotypic IQ is projected for the years 2000–2050. In the period 1950–2000 this decline has been compensated for by a rise in phenotypic intelligence known as the Flynn Effect, but recent studies in four economically developed countries have found that this has now ceased or gone into reverse. It seems probable that this “negative Flynn Effect” will spread to economically developing countries and the whole world will move into a period of declining genotypic and phenotypic intelligence. It is possible that “the new eugenics” of biotechnology may evolve to counteract dysgenic fertility.

(Abstract)
Intelligence
Volume 36, Issue 2, March-April 2008, Pages 112-120,


A long way from proving the thesis, but at the very least I hope that those involved in this thread will 1) Stop confusing genotypic and phenotypic intelligence, and 2) Stop being arrogantly dismissive dicks.

The topic is worth investigating due to the well established link between stupidity and fertility (or, alternately, class and fertility for which we would only need to establish a decent correlation between stupidity and class) and the likely link between intelligence and genetics.

I'll try to back this up with a better analysis later but I've got hot dogs to eat.

It seems like every time I suggest something as harmless as eugenics everyone's emotions go into overdrive... :roll:


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26 May 2008, 1:40 pm

Orwell wrote:
Confused-Fish wrote:
grain-and-field wrote:
Do you believe that the human race is constantly evolving and gets smarter and gets larger brains?


actually iq averages are slowly dropping worldwide due to the fact that less intelligent people are far more likely to produce offspring.

False. Do some basic fact-checking before you go spouting this nonsense. Average IQs keep RISING. Google "Flynn effect" if you want more information. The movie "Idiocracy" is not a reliable source for eugenics info.



eugenics in general is a dead-end wrought with horrors.



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26 May 2008, 1:45 pm

Ah yes! Eugenics where some self appointed superior group decides that only it has the right to live. Henry Ford and a good many well respected people like Bernard Shaw and H.G.Wells appraised it favorably until Nazi Germany took it seriously. After that it didn't do too well. It does advocate mass execution with no problems of conscience but extreme religions do the same thing with a higher authority.



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26 May 2008, 1:52 pm

skafather84 wrote:
eugenics in general is a dead-end wrought with horrors.


I'm hesitant to disagree with this, but eugenics isn't a totally horrible concept. Stupid eugenics, that have no basis in fact, being used to support a violent, genocidal purge of a scapegoat to support the validity of an insane government is. But that's really politics, not science. If anything, evidence would have suggested selecting for Jews, not against them. Ashkenazi Jews are a pretty good case for this, as well as a the jewish scientists that fled the country. The influx of physicists was a big help with creating the atomic bomb in America.



Sand
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26 May 2008, 2:04 pm

Of course doctors, health insurance people, the military, governments etc. decide every day who shall live and who shall die. But it is unwise they should be comfortable in the decision.