Should America leave Iraq?

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 2:37 pm

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

MR_BOGAN wrote:

I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war.

Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone.

You Yanks made the mess, you've a responsibility to stay there until it's sorted out. If you go, and wash your hands of it, the different factions will just accelerate the rate at which they're currently killing each other. Morally, that's not really acceptable. However, as morals usually figure fairly low on US priorities, then economically you've an incentive as far as oil supply goes. With current demand and the state of your economy, writing-off oil reserves as large as Iraq's to a future lawless war-stricken pit comparable to some of the current African states, is not something to be taken lightly.

You'll be in Iraq for a long time yet. In fact it's in the interest of most of the rest of the world that you are, I think. Not that you'll get much thanks.

Yes, you shouldn't wash your hands like the brits in Basra.

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11 May 2008, 2:44 pm

oscuria wrote:

No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes.

Aren't Jews welcome in modern European states? They're certainly welcome here in America, and I would support carving out a chunk of land the size of Israel for them if they wanted it. We can give them part of West Texas, or something.

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11 May 2008, 2:45 pm

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

MR_BOGAN wrote:

I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war.

Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone.

No, it's not morally acceptable for us to leave Iraq to its fate. It also isn't morally acceptable for us to occupy Iraq against the will of its inhabitants. Did we have a responsibility to stay in Vietnam until the mess was sorted out? (maybe not, since France started that one) There's no easy way out of this, all of our options look rather bleak at the moment.

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 2:51 pm

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Welcomed? I don't think they would. Remember, there will be arab jews in the mix. I really doubt any another country will accept an "Aliyah".

Anyways, the US has about the same (or more?) Jewish population, but definitely not as diverse as that of Israel.

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11 May 2008, 2:56 pm

oscuria wrote:

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

America is pretty accepting, aside from a few rednecks. We have Arabs who live here without any trouble. I don't know much about Israel's demographics, but America is pretty diverse. Anyways, if we can deal with millions of Mexicans coming over the border, we can find room for a couple Jews.

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 3:06 pm

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

lol, not everyone is accepting of mexicans though. There will be Jews who have no work experience or education beyond that which is required to survive. I really doubt that the US will accept millions of Jews to enter their country to flourish.

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11 May 2008, 3:16 pm

oscuria wrote:

It might depend on how many millions of Jews we're talking here. Even so, America has successfully incorporated several large influxes of foreign populations into our own, and the current one (Mexicans) isn't proceeding nearly as violently as previous ones have (Irish). Not everyone is accepting of Mexicans, but most are, especially if the Mexicans learn to speak English. And I don't think there's as much bias against Jews as there is against Mexicans (at least as far as I can tell).

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 3:26 pm

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?

Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews.

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11 May 2008, 3:40 pm

oscuria wrote:

Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?

Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews.

I don't know how to respond to the "Zionist Media" comment, since I'm not sure what you're talking about. I doubt the US could be viewed as a puppet of Zionism, though.

So what if we get some fanatical Jews? Nice counterbalance to Christian fundies. We have fanatics of all stripes, we can deal with it.

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 3:44 pm

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?

Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews.

Um. Fox News, Evangelicals, Zionist Movement? I always hear such things coming from pro-palestinian and anti-israelites. Mainly because of US support for Israel.

Can we deal with Islamic fundamentalists?

Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians.

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11 May 2008, 3:50 pm

oscuria wrote:

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?

Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews.

I didn't realize anyone took Fox News seriously (or Evangelicals, for that matter). Sure we can deal with Islamic fundamentalists. We have quite a few of them already, actually.

oscuria wrote:

Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians.

What is the alternative? We will have to leave someday. The complaints I hear about withdrawing (anarchy, chaos, death) apply whether we leave today, next year, or in a decade. I don't think we can do anything to significantly further our goals there because of the corner we've backed ourselves into, and I don't see the benefit in delaying the end result.

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oscuria
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11 May 2008, 3:59 pm

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Orwell wrote:

oscuria wrote:

Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?

Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews.

I didn't realize anyone took Fox News seriously (or Evangelicals, for that matter). Sure we can deal with Islamic fundamentalists. We have quite a few of them already, actually.

oscuria wrote:

Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians.

Ha, many do take Fox news seriously, and the evangelicals were pretty strong a couple of years ago. I think people got tired of their mess though, I've not heard much about them lately. Maybe by November they'll resurge.

There can be many ways to calm Iraq, but many nations are not participating. I don't meant that they should send in troops, but to publicly say they are in support of Iraq instead of just standing back and blaming america for everything. I've yet to hear many of the nations publicly go against the terrorists/militants.

The benefit right now is that there aren't that many places the extremists will shelter themselves. We know they've found a place in Iraq, and now that they are there the US has to root them out. If we pull out too soon, what will happen of Iraq? I don't buy into the BS that the libs say. Iraq is a beautiful country, deep inside. I wouldn't want to see it overrun by extremists, especially after the history of Saddam.

Sadly, if it does fall into tyranny, I doubt her neighbors would do anything about it and accept it just like everything else. "It's your fault US."

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11 May 2008, 6:52 pm

as long as i dream of waterloo sunset, i am in paradise.

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12 May 2008, 1:24 pm

MR_BOGAN wrote:

I don't know on this one.

I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war.

But on the other hand I think most Iraq's people see America soldiers as the enermy and they maybe causing more harm than good by being there.

Also if Iraq didn't have any oil, America really wouldn't care less about the country. At the end of the day that is really what the Iraq war is all about.

Oil... you struck gold with that comment. It's pretty much all they're there for; that and to have a control centre for the rest of the middle east.

Yes, they should get the hell out. Now. They've not done a thing except destabilise a country and destroy its inhabitants for generations to come - all that Depleted Uranium polluting the land and all - and their presence there is just creating more violence. The country is just about in civil war already one could argue, I don't see that them staying there is doing much to prevent any violence and keep the peace - there is no peace to keep!

Get out. Now.

Now!

Do it.

Yes.

And 'democracy'? Might want to sort out the home situation first, guys...

Disclaimer: I've nothing against your average Joe America. Only the government.

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12 May 2008, 1:25 pm

Orwell wrote:

Why do they hate us? Don't try to pull some crap about them being "jealous of our liberty." That is about the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. There is a perception in the Middle East that we act as aggressors and try to boss around these smaller countries, as well as supporting Israel unconditionally without regard to the claims of Palestinians. They also have a host of other objections to the US, such as our actions in Iran in regards to the Shah.

Truer words never spoken.

Only, that perception extends beyond the Middle East and into most of the rest of the world. And I agree with it.

Peebo is right - al Qaeda? Who are they? Non-existent.

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