Atheist faith

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Fnord
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14 Oct 2008, 7:37 pm

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Science requires rigorous peer review and does not rely on faith, in fact it is the job of those conducting the review to try and disprove the theory, this is hardly faith. Religion requires faith because there is nothing to peer review

Oh but there is. We peer review each other all the time. It's called fellowship.

Peer review of each other's prayer methods, Bible verse memorization techniques, and gospel-oriented musical talents is hardly a critical examination of one's faith. "Fellowship" is more like a fashion show and gossip session than anything resembling an exercise of the Scientific Method. Christians never really examine their faith, they will merely flaunt its repressive dogma in all its subjective irrationality!

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14 Oct 2008, 7:57 pm

Fnord wrote:

Christians never really examine their faith,

Actually, some do, although part of their faith, not the whole faith system which consist of the existence and worship of God, but part of their dogma and changing their beliefs with disagreement with their own church in some aspects, which I can say has had the result of creating new denominational/non-denominational separated groups or churches.

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they merely flaunt its repressive dogma in all its subjective irrationality!

I question your reasoning to be really objective on this matter, AFAIK, you have admitted to be biased and antirreligious, that hardly conforms with objectivity in the empirical sense and very likely you are ending up being subjective with this.

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Sand
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14 Oct 2008, 7:58 pm

The prime difference between science and faith is the use of doubt as a rigorous tool. Religions condemn doubt because doubt encourages curiosity into why certain beliefs are held and those inquiries can either substantiate beliefs or destroy them. Science is based on doubt because doubting unsubstantiated beliefs in science opens new pathways to new discoveries that can revise huge understandings about the universe. The exciting thing about science is that it undergoes continuous change which reveals new things about the universe such as dark matter, black holes, and the possibility of parallel universes. Religion is static and, under theological governments, openly stated doubts can evoke severe punishment.

Fnord
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14 Oct 2008, 8:04 pm

^ Amen.

Awesomelyglorious
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14 Oct 2008, 8:55 pm

It is not a double standard as the atheists in question believe that they science has a proper epistemic grounding while religion doesn't, and usually believe that they can prove that position satisfactorily, while the religion follower cannot prove their faith up to that same level.

slowmutant
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14 Oct 2008, 9:03 pm

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Oh but there is. We peer review each other all the time. It's called fellowship.

Which church do you attend?

Magnus
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14 Oct 2008, 9:13 pm

Doubt is the constant companion of faith. Faith is a virtue. It's a higher level of human cognition.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MEANVIR.TXT

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Orwell
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14 Oct 2008, 9:16 pm

Sand wrote:

Odd, the churches I have attended throughout my life were hardly dogmatic and encouraged questioning. I was never condemned for expressing doubt about anything. On the contrary, my questions were always welcomed.

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Religion is static

This is blatantly historically inaccurate.

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Magnus
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14 Oct 2008, 9:23 pm

I doubt my beliefs all the time but my strength (Faith) comes from God and it allows me to endure anything.
Let me ask the Atheists a question and see if they can answer this honestly.

Do you ever doubt your belief that there is no God and explore the possibility that you could be wrong?

NeantHumain
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14 Oct 2008, 9:42 pm

skafather84 wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

There are atheists who substitute a faith in science, evolution, and the Big Bang for the Christian mythology of others, but this is not true of all atheists.

associating faith and evolution is moronic and i'm not tolerating such idiocy anymore. just because someone is too stupid to actually comprehend the process of evolution and see that our understanding of it and the paths taken in it are itself an ongoing study with corrections along the way doesn't mean it requires faith. in fact, the fact that it is constantly met with skepticism and challenges at various levels shows that it's anything BUT faith.

I am referring to the sort of atheists who need to believe in something but who do not want to believe in anything religious or supernatural. For them, evolution is not a mere scientific theory or fact; it is an article of faith. Accepting it means passing a litmus test. They do not merely dispassionately think it is so far the best explanation science has offered for the origins of the diversity of life as we know it; they have invested their sense of identity in this idea; if a new theory trumped it, they may have a crisis of identity unless they have some way to rationalize themselves to the new theory or to continue defending a now discredited theory. These same sort of atheists may believe voting Democratic (in the United States) is necessary to be a true atheist. They may have that zealotry that we generally know only in the fundamentalist Christian and even the attenuation of the will we see in the cult (and often in "fellowship").

I prefer to say I am nonreligious than atheist to avoid confusion with that sort of atheist. Anyway the word faith need not carry religious connotations. For example, I have faith the sun will rise again tomorrow. Scientifically, I know it is very probable, but this faith is a more intuitive grasp of it.

Also, avoid such ad hominem remarks as, "associating faith and evolution is moronic." We come to this subforum to concoct and convey often controversial associations.

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14 Oct 2008, 10:36 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Well, yes, that's right, nevertheless, it comes down to be a matter of some degree of faith to science in the end, depending on how each person handle information given and how they get that information, if they personally are profesionals in the subject and got some results through conducting tests themselves then I could say that it would not be so much noticable the case, but in the case of a person reading results from articles, in which they have nothing to do with research then it would be a higher degree of faith in that case to accept such information gained through any media, depending on which information and how one takes it.

Most of us take some things for granted from science because of having faith in the source of the information and the information itself, so we can't deny we have had and have to have some faith on some things, and well, it have been argued what kind of faith is more reasonable than the other, and well, clearly one seem to make more sense than the other, however, these things can be tricky as it is often accompanied by personal opinions and personal intuition which makes it enough to cast some doubt when making and supporting claims on both sides, but that may be an agnostic position I suppose.

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greenblue
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14 Oct 2008, 10:44 pm

skafather84 wrote:

associating faith and evolution is moronic and i'm not tolerating such idiocy anymore.

Well, you probably might speak for yourself, I really don't know your own personal view on evolution, but it would depend on how other atheists, in which this thread is focusing, would see evolution themselves. Evolution is falsiable, technically because of this, it should not be taken with absolute certainty, now if people take it with that much of certainty then it would be a degree of faith, a part from that, I believe scientists would qualify more to have less faith given than they themselves do research and tests, as I stated earlier, for non-scientists the faith will be more noticable as they would believe results and information that is gained through professionals rather than themselves. I mean, many people wether atheists, agnostics and christians as well, put their faith in the scientific community.

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greenblue
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14 Oct 2008, 10:46 pm

Magnus wrote:

Do you ever doubt your belief that there is no God and explore the possibility that you could be wrong?

Well, I may be wrong but I think it would be easier for an atheist to doubt themselves than a christian, but I'm not so sure of that

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skafather84
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14 Oct 2008, 11:41 pm

Orwell wrote:

Quote:

Religion is static

This is blatantly historically inaccurate.

yeah. obstinate would be much more accurate.

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Sand
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14 Oct 2008, 11:56 pm

Orwell wrote:

Sand wrote:

Quote:

Religion is static

This is blatantly historically inaccurate.

I suppose there have been some changes over the past thousand years. Muslim countries still, here and there, burn and stone witches and in Iraq they are still butchering each other over something that happened the better part of two thousand years ago but Christians are somewhat less bloodthirsty and no longer persecute Jews as much as they had but there have not arisen any doubts over the existence of God or Angels or to a large extent Satan and his hot domicile. Flying saucers seem not to originate in Heaven, or, at least, those bulgy eyed blue guys don't seem particularly angelic . And tales of their medical experiments don't fit at all into Biblical standards. But God himself seems rather helpless. He needs fanatics to invoke compliance. Science, on the other hand never has to threaten anybody. Gravity works every time you stumble with no aid from scientists. And magnets are equally as efficient with no human nudge necessary.

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14 Oct 2008, 11:58 pm

Faith by definition means:

Quote:

faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Idiom:

From a spiritual point of view, Faith comes from a higher level of thinking that transcends the animal mind. Faith is a virtue. Have you studied them?

Monty said:

Quote:

Real science requires going beyond regurgitation and pushing the frontiers of knowledge - real science is about trying to learn something new about the universe. This typically goes on in graduate level classes and requires mentoring. At this level, a scientist needs not only the rigor and discipline that they should have learned in the lower level classes, but also creativity and a type of faith (not religious per se, but faith none the less). A real scientist has to reopen the awe that the previous 8-10 years of formal education ignored or repressed.

We could use more real scientists.

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