Penetrative Sex Only when Willing to Raise a Child

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Penetrative Sex

Only when ready, able and willing to raise a child	3%	[ 2 ]
Only in long-term relationships in which may eventually want to have children	9%	[ 6 ]
Only when think that a relationship may be long-term	28%	[ 19 ]
Only after a few dates	3%	[ 2 ]
Whenever it is available with someone you are attracted to	36%	[ 24 ]
Whenever it is available	21%	[ 14 ]
Never/only with the same sex/other option	0%	[ 0 ]

Total votes : 67

ouinon
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03 Dec 2008, 12:55 pm

Sand wrote:

The whole concept is unworkable. There is no way to control or enforce particular types of relationships.

Social conditioning forms/shapes sexual behaviour. It has done so through the ages, and does so still. Sexuality, as we know it, is not some natural force expressed freely by people. It is constructed by society, by words, with advertisments, taboo, education, medical language, etc etc etc. To argue that sexuality as it currently exists is some sort of natural behaviour and beyond influence is to ignore/deny a fundamental aspect of the human species, our mental plasticity.

Ideas spread, as the idea has spread that homosexuality is not in fact a crime/perversion/sickness/neurosis, for example. As it has spread not only have thousands begun engaging for the first time in their lives in homosexual relationships which they had always longed for, but others have become aware of how their sexuality was constructed, how limited their sexual activity/expression had been, that although dissatisfied they had not understood why.

I am not suggesting that this would be a rule to be enforced, but that it would be a good idea which if it spread, as other ideas have done before, might relieve suffering, and usher in a whole new way of living in sexual-partnership.
.

Fraya
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03 Dec 2008, 1:20 pm

ouinon wrote:

To argue that sexuality as it currently exists is some sort of natural behaviour and beyond influence is to ignore/deny a fundamental aspect of the human species, our mental plasticity.

Learned behavior almost always takes a backseat to instinctive reactions. To say sex is a learned behavior is to say that our species should have gone extinct. Take two babies and drop them in the jungle and assuming they survive they will reproduce.

Taboos may have an influence on what we are willing to talk about and do in public but it doesn't alter our desires or private behavior at all. You can make it taboo to jump when scared but if someone surprises you there's no helping it.

ouinon wrote:

Ideas spread, as the idea has spread that homosexuality is not in fact a crime/perversion/sickness/neurosis, for example.

Your talking about the elimination of a taboo (created with the power of fear) though not the creation of one.

ouinon wrote:

I am not suggesting that this would be a rule to be enforced, but that it would be a good idea which if it spread, as other ideas have done before, might relieve suffering, and usher in a whole new way of living in sexual-partnership.
.

You would need an extremely strong motivator integrated into the idea for it to even have a chance of spreading.

For example the problem the church faced with homosexuality in the dark ages:
Version 1: "Homosexuality shouldn't be practiced."
Ok.. why not?
Version 2: "Homosexuality shouldn't be practiced because its weird."
Ok I agree its weird but again if I don't mind being weird why shouldn't I be homosexual?
Version 3: "Homosexuality shouldn't be practiced because its weird and will damn your soul to eternal torment and torture in the searing flames of hell and we will kill you and send you there."
Hey whoa wait a minute that sounds rather unpleasant so maybe I should rethink this.

The 2% chance of getting pregnant isn't strong enough to override the gain in enjoyment created by ignoring the "taboo".

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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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03 Dec 2008, 2:39 pm

Sand wrote:

If Jesus, instead of being portrayed as a bearded aesthetic were shown as a version of Elvis Presley or one of the sexier movie stars I'm sure many more people might be attracted to religion (myself excepted since Jesus as Marilyn Monroe seems rather far fetched). The Muslims hold out a flock of post-mortem virgins willing and able to make happy any real religious enthusiast and considering the mayhem in the current world they seem to be rather successful.

The idea of Jesus-as-sex-symbol has actually cropped up a few times over the years in Christianity, at least symbolically. The Old Testament has that imagery of God as male and Israel as errant and/or faithful bride, and the Song of Solomon (albeit that it's probably just a collection of erotic Jewish wedding songs) got interpreted in that way, and then the bridal imagery got taken over into Christianity...and quite a few of the more famous female saints (nuns, most of them, so deprived of other male objects of desire) appear to have taken it rather literally. The language some of them use to describe divine union is quite, um, interesting...

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ouinon
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03 Dec 2008, 2:48 pm

Fraya wrote:

Learned behavior almost always takes a backseat to instinctive reactions. To say sex is a learned behavior is to say that our species should have gone extinct.

Our ancestors used to carry their babies around at all times, breastfeed them more or less on demand for more than a year, fight each other for ownership of offspring, pick fleas off each other for hours every day, eat placentas at birth, and eat insects and grubs out of trees. If chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas are anything to go by early man always used to have sex with females from behind, and females had to put up with sexual attentions from the dominant male or lose privileges, or worse.

Most modern human behaviour is learned.

Quote:

Taboos may have an influence on what we are willing to talk about and do in public but it doesn't alter our desires or private behavior at all.

Quote:

ouinon wrote:

Ideas spread, as the idea has spread that homosexuality is not in fact a crime/perversion/sickness/neurosis, for example.

You're talking about the elimination of a taboo (created with the power of fear) though, not the creation of one.

I am not talking about the creation of a taboo at all, but a new perception, a distinguishing between activities. In the same way as political correctness, when not exaggerated, is an increased awareness of how some behaviour is not appropriate.

Quote:

You would need an extremely strong motivator integrated into the idea for it to even have a chance of spreading.

I think there already is one major one, ( as described/explained above and on previous page ), for the increasing numbers of people who live alone. So long as sexual activity routinely/automatically includes a potentially reproductive act the biological imperative will determine which partners, if any, people will accept.

NB. Until the term "sexual harrassment", ( for example ), was defined, understood, and officially recognised most people just laughed at women for objecting to it.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 04 Dec 2008, 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Macbeth
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03 Dec 2008, 5:16 pm

ouinon wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Learned behavior almost always takes a backseat to instinctive reactions. To say sex is a learned behavior is to say that our species should have gone extinct.

Quote:

Taboos may have an influence on what we are willing to talk about and do in public but it doesn't alter our desires or private behavior at all.

Quote:

ouinon wrote:

Ideas spread, as the idea has spread that homosexuality is not in fact a crime/perversion/sickness/neurosis, for example.

You're talking about the elimination of a taboo (created with the power of fear) though, not the creation of one.

Quote:

You would need an extremely strong motivator integrated into the idea for it to even have a chance of spreading.

I think there already is one, as described/explained above and on previous page. The connection just needs pointing out to the increasing numbers of people who currently suffer from the existing system. Until the term "sexual harrassment", ( for example ), was defined, understood, and officially recognised most people just laughed at women for objecting to it.
.

One issue: when penetration almost always = babies, there was a clear enough distinction. But 98/99 percent protection has long since removed 98/99 percent of the danger. People just would not buy that as a mindset. The danger of pregnancy is so much lower.

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NocturnalQuilter
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03 Dec 2008, 5:18 pm

As Margaret Cho so eloquently put it:

STICK IT IN!! !! !

pakled
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03 Dec 2008, 9:19 pm

Be an it harm none; do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law - Alister Crowley
As long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses - Oscar Wilde

And if you think Homosexuality is wierd, I have one word for you....Manga. they have kinks I'd never think of.

ouinon
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04 Dec 2008, 2:55 am

Macbeth wrote:

when penetration almost always = babies, there was a clear enough distinction. But 98/99 percent protection has long since removed 98/99 percent of the danger.

I think that this may be precisely the source of the problem.

Most people now think that penile-vaginal, penetrative, sex is safely disconnected from reproduction, ( by various forms of contraception ), but the body and the unconscious mind know that this is not entirely true.

Consequently people end up obeying, even more unthinkingly than in recent centuries, the ancient biological imperatives, ( tendency to engage in sexual activity and partnership only with alpha males/females etc ), without any of the previous safeguards/precautions which humans had spent a few thousand years putting in place and which had had an effect on people's choice of partners.

ie: With enough safeguards/social structures etc in place, which recognise how life-changing penetrative sex can be, ( creating a child ), a woman may be ready to have sex with the most un-alpha male. But in the "jungle" it is the alpha who wins.

I think that we are deluding ourselves if we believe that 98%-reliable contraception is enough to switch off the body's, ( and the unconscious mind's ), genetically driven priorities. Penetrative sex is experienced as reproductive, and if potentially reproductive sex is routinely/automatically part of sexual activity it will trigger alpha-seeking behaviour.

.

DentArthurDent
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04 Dec 2008, 5:00 am

ouinon wrote:

I think that we are deluding ourselves if we believe that 98%-reliable contraception is enough to switch off the body's, ( and the unconscious mind's ), genetically driven priorities. Penetrative sex is experienced as reproductive, and if potentially reproductive sex is routinely/automatically part of sexual activity it will trigger alpha-seeking behaviour.

.

Yeah and if you are in the unlucky 2% that get pregnant with contraception and are in the small percentage of that 2% that do not want to continue to parenthood; abort; whats the big deal, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill :roll:

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ouinon
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04 Dec 2008, 7:10 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

If you are in the unlucky 2% that get pregnant with contraception, and are in the small percentage of that 2% that do not want to continue to parenthood; abort; whats the big deal, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill :roll:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

Have you had an abortion? I have. It is a big deal. In nine cases out of ten abortion is followed by periods of depression; sometimes years of guilt, of feeling that life is meaningless, feelings of shame, loss of self-esteem, sorrow for the lost child, self-defensive "hardness" or callousness, a chronic loss of interest in life or capacity for joy.

And the fear of perhaps having to have an abortion, or face only partially wanted parenthood, affects everyone, consciously or unconsciously, not just the 2%. After all you don't know if you will be one of that percentage or not.
.

slowmutant
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04 Dec 2008, 7:26 am

Contraception helps. Abstinence helps even more.

parts
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04 Dec 2008, 12:47 pm

ouinon wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

Then instead of what you are suggesting abortion should come with counseling. Also contraceptives should be free

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ouinon
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04 Dec 2008, 2:44 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Contraception helps. Abstinence helps even more.

Only abstinence from penetrative/penile-vaginal sex is necessary, not abstinence from all other sexual activity.

I think it is extraordinary that in the modern age, in which babies are separated from the breast, people rarely see an animal until it is dead on their plate, etc, etc, most people's idea of sex necessarily, primarily, routinely, involves a potentially-reproductive sexual activity.

parts wrote:

Then instead of what you are suggesting abortion should come with counselling.

Even if counselling had much effect on women who have killed their own children it would still be missing the point, that it is everybody who is affected by the 2% risk.

The entire dynamics of sexual partnership are coloured by this anachronistic attitude, that sex, to be sex, must usually/almost always include penile-vaginal penetration.
.

Macbeth
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04 Dec 2008, 3:05 pm

ouinon wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Contraception helps. Abstinence helps even more.

parts wrote:

Then instead of what you are suggesting abortion should come with counselling.

Potentially.. its only a potentially reproductive act, given the prevalence of contraception. Its not even that likely when you AREN'T using contraception. It is not a 100 percent certainty that in the absence of contraception inception will occur.

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DentArthurDent
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04 Dec 2008, 3:38 pm

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

.

Tens then Hundreds of thousands, make up your mind, or better still get some actual stats rather than grabbing emotional figures from thin air.

Yes abortion is a big deal, which is made worse by nut jobs picketing the clinics.

ouinon
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04 Dec 2008, 4:18 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Do you know what that "small percentage" is that, having fallen pregnant, don't want to have a child? It's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of women.

Tens then Hundreds of thousands, make up your mind, or better still get some actual stats rather than grabbing emotional figures from thin air.

The number of abortions in the year 2000 in the USA alone was 1.31 million.

( The number of abortions each year in the USA is higher than/almost three times the number of people who die of cancers. Which makes the warning on tobacco packets; "Smoking may, [ that is potentially ], seriously damage your health" look paltry, compared to the kind of warning they should put on penile-vaginal sex).

Quote:

Yes abortion is a big deal, which is made worse by nut jobs picketing the clinics.

I don't think that that is the most upsetting aspect of having an abortion. Do you, really?

Macbeth wrote:

It's only potentially a reproductive act.

When someone engages in penile-vaginal sex for fun, for companionship, or because "it is what one does", they are doing something which may/potentially create life. It doesn't matter what the figures are exactly; most people, particularly women, know/understand, ( consciously or not ) how "dangerous"/life-changing sex is/can be, and, in the jungle of modern sexual relationships many women may well be choosing and/or reserving themselves for the men/man who seem to promise good genes and/or support/protection.

If sex was clearly understood/perceived to be of two kinds, one ( penile-vaginal ) with children in mind, and one ( all the other stuff) with only fun and companionship in mind, it is possible that many people currently living alone, or choosing alpha/safe partners, because ( penetrative ) sex is dangerous/risky, would take/find partners, ( or different ones) .
.

Last edited by ouinon on 04 Dec 2008, 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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