Zionists must be happy

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Your guiding principle seems to be something other than being reasonable, right or good. If killing innocent civilians is wrong (or evil or immoral), and one side is killing more innocent civilians, then (ceteris paribus) they should be described as being more wrong or evil or immoral.

Proportionality is important. If the Germans in the 1940s could show one example of a Jew hurting Germany, would it justify the holocaust? Or is it fair to say that the holocaust was a disproportionate and evil response (and that most of the charges against the Jews were false), and that action should have been limited to the one Jew who did wrong?

No, and that statement supports my belief that you don't make a moral distinction between a just war and an unjust war. If I shoot someone because they are trying to kidnap my wife, ok. If I shoot someone because I want to take their wallet and car, its wrong. If someone stole my wallet and was escaping in a crowd, would it be ok to shoot in the crowd to stop the thief? Should the police who are hunting a serial killer be given discretion to kill hundreds of innocent people in their search? Or is that quite literally 'overkill' and wrong?

I would also disagree when you say that people don't sacrifice their own life for the benefits of others - soldiers risk and sacrifice their own lives for the benefit of the country as a whole. Individuals may also do it in some circumstances. Of course, there is a tendency for self-preservation, and this idea of the greater-good is not always the deciding factor.




Actually, Americans should be assessing the value of action that has been taken. For example, we will have lost more blood and treasure in Iraq than was lost on 9-11, and Iraq had nothing to do with that event (though 9-11 was used as justification to start the war). I think Bush and Cheney are evil for what they did. And we should assess the policy towards Afghanistan - I am all for hunting down Bin Laden and his band, but the tactics should be considered in terms of their effect on innocents in Afghanistan. Ultimately, the more innocents the US kills in Afghanistan, the less likely it will be that the people there are friendly towards us, the more likely they are to again engage in killing of innocent Americans.

Israel doesn't target the innocent Palestinian citizens who voted for an openly-terrorist leadership, Hamas,
over a slightly-less-hellbent leadership, Fatah, in a landslide that made Obama's win over McCain look like a tie by comparison.
Worldwide anti-Israelism is far too out of control for Israel to decide they need yet more bad publicity,
even if they weren't a peace-minded people, which they manifestly are.

As I explained in another thread, Israel chose to enter Gaza the risky way -- on the ground, rather than from the air where they could have simply carpet-bombed the broad swaths from which ammunition was being fired. Israel leads the world in surgical strike tactics and technology, because life is so precious to them. They seek to kill those who take others' innocent lives.

Also: people who willingly harbor or otherwise support terrorists are not innocent, they are direct accessories to murder.

History_of_psychiatry, why do you hate the Jews? What's at the root of this obsession?

Last edited by Ragtime on 26 Jan 2009, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Surgical strikes demonstrate moral concern, and are to be commended (when they happen). But it is not clear that Israel generally showed such restraint.

When they were pulling out from Lebanon, they dropped over one million cluster bombs, which will affect anyone who tries to return to their homes. This was not only indiscriminate, it occurred when the conflict was over.

In Gaza, the Israelis could have been more destructive, but there is not much evidence to suggest surgical precision .... and if that is their idea of surgical precision, I sure don't want an Israeli surgeon operating on me.

Finally, it doesn't seem that Israel is worried about international public opinion, although they have advised Israeli politicians not to travel to Europe, as they might be arrested for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Zionism is obsolete, it is the movement to create a Jewish state, which already exists.

Zionism continues to exist due to the desire for an expanded Jewish state.

That's like saying that Americanism is obsolete, since there is a United States of America.

I suggest you go poll the west bank settlers and ask them if they are Zionists

From Wikipedia
A conspiracy theory alleges a coordinated group is, or was, secretly working to commit illegal or wrongful actions, including attempting to hide the existence of the group and its activities.

A conspiracy as you correctly point out means to conspire, as you will see from the quote you used I have staed that Zionism is NOT a conspiracy theory.

O that reminds me of 3 years ago:



Just replace Hizbullah with Hamas and Lebanon with Gaza and you get the same story.

Of course. You always get the same story when you hate Jews. You always know who's guilty in any conflict involving them.

When you hate a people involved in a conflict, the verdict is always easy, and even determinable before evidence is seen:
The people you hate are the guilty ones. So, I guess hate is like omniscience except for the accuracy level.

I do not hate Jews.

but I hate people like you .

That is true. Manifest Destiny is obsolete because we already have it. Most Israelis don't care one bit about expansion of their territory. They would be willing to sacrifice territory for security, if the Palestinians returned to that equation.

Bet they would not return to their UN mandated territory

Really? Since most of your posts suggest that you do hate Jews, and very much so, perhaps you would like to set the record straight here and now as to how you feel about them? Not for my benefit, mind you, but for the gullible.

And of course, if you hate Arabs and Palestineans, and you believe that Israel can do no wrong, there is no problem dismissing all the contrary evidence.

My experience from decades of watching the Middle East is that all military parties are usually guilty of contributing to the slaughter, with very few exceptions. The innocents are trampled by zealots of all persuasions.

Such is the nature of modern warfare. Large numbers of collateral casualties are inevitable. The only sane thing to do is get used to it.

ruveyn