Page 3 of 5 [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

zerooftheday
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 132

30 Mar 2009, 12:49 am

I'd have sworn I had a really bitchin' post about this. Then again, it was probably one of those "WP just choked again, try retyping your whole post again in five minutes" things.

Ruveyn:

The Russians might not. I'd give China a 70/30 chance they *would*. They just signed a medium-term oil deal with Iran, if we jack with Iran, they lose their oil. World's largest nation, world's fastest-expanding economy, if their oil gets threatened, their gonna fight fast and hard for it. Kinda like we did in Desert Storm, when Saddam threatened our oil.



Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

30 Mar 2009, 3:25 pm

zerooftheday wrote:
I'd have sworn I had a really bitchin' post about this. Then again, it was probably one of those "WP just choked again, try retyping your whole post again in five minutes" things.

Ruveyn:

The Russians might not. I'd give China a 70/30 chance they *would*. They just signed a medium-term oil deal with Iran, if we jack with Iran, they lose their oil. World's largest nation, world's fastest-expanding economy, if their oil gets threatened, their gonna fight fast and hard for it. Kinda like we did in Desert Storm, when Saddam threatened our oil.




Russia has a military alliance with Iran and furthermore, look what happened last year when they invaded Georgia which is currently a US ally! I think that the Chinese are not eager to engage the US militarily over Iran(now the pacific is a different matter all together)whereas I firmly believe the Russians definitely are. Russia has deployed tactical missiles in Syria and Iran to counter the US influence there. Does anyone remember the Yom Kippur war and Soviet Russia's very direct threat to get involved militarily on Egypt's behalf? Why wouldnt they do it again? :wink:



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Mar 2009, 4:09 pm

Haliphron wrote:
x



Russia has a military alliance with Iran and furthermore, look what happened last year when they invaded Georgia which is currently a US ally! I think that the Chinese are not eager to engage the US militarily over Iran(now the pacific is a different matter all together)whereas I firmly believe the Russians definitely are. Russia has deployed tactical missiles in Syria and Iran to counter the US influence there. Does anyone remember the Yom Kippur war and Soviet Russia's very direct threat to get involved militarily on Egypt's behalf? Why wouldnt they do it again? :wink:


Do you remember who won that war?

ruveyn



Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

30 Mar 2009, 4:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
x



Russia has a military alliance with Iran and furthermore, look what happened last year when they invaded Georgia which is currently a US ally! I think that the Chinese are not eager to engage the US militarily over Iran(now the pacific is a different matter all together)whereas I firmly believe the Russians definitely are. Russia has deployed tactical missiles in Syria and Iran to counter the US influence there. Does anyone remember the Yom Kippur war and Soviet Russia's very direct threat to get involved militarily on Egypt's behalf? Why wouldnt they do it again? :wink:


Do you remember who won that war?

ruveyn


Israel won the war with egypt, but the Soviet Union could have DESTROYED Israel if they chose to do so; not without severe consequences of course. But you DO recall that Israel withdrew from the Sinai and some of the other territories they captured in the Six Day War. Also, around that time an Israeli warship was sunk by a cruise missile fired from a Soviet warship. These kinds of wars have enormous potential to draw other nation in and who knows? It just might be the seed of World War III :twisted:



Concenik
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 441
Location: not in average tinfoil fanlnand teeth optional

30 Mar 2009, 4:56 pm

an interesting article:

Quote:
Iran's View of Obama
March 23, 2009


Graphic for Geopolitical Intelligence Report

By George Friedman
Related Special Topic Page



U.S. President Barack Obama released a video offering Iran congratulations on the occasion of Nowruz, the Persian New Year, on Friday. Israeli President Shimon Peres also offered his best wishes, referring to “the noble Iranian people.” The joint initiative was received coldly in Tehran, however. Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said the video did not show that the United States had shifted its hostile attitude toward Iran.

The video is obviously part of Obama’s broader strategy of demonstrating that his administration has shifted U.S. policy, at least to the extent that it is prepared to open discussions with other regimes (with Iran being the hardest and most controversial case). The U.S. strategy is fairly straightforward: Obama is trying to create a new global perception of the United States. Global opinion was that former U.S. President George W. Bush was unwilling to engage with, and listen to, allies or enemies. Obama’s view is that that perception in itself harmed U.S. foreign policy by increasing suspicion of the United States. For Obama, offering New Year’s greetings to Iran is therefore part of a strategy to change the tone of all aspects of U.S. foreign policy.

Getting Peres to offer parallel greetings was undoubtedly intended to demonstrate to the Iranians that the Israelis would not block U.S. initiatives toward Iran. The Israelis probably were willing to go along with the greetings because they don’t expect them to go very far. They also want to show that they were not responsible for their failure, something critical in their relations with the Obama administration.

The Iranian response is also understandable. The United States has made a series of specific demands on Iran, and has worked to impose economic sanctions on Iran when Tehran has not complied. But Iran also has some fairly specific demands of the United States. It might be useful, therefore, to look at the Iranian view of the United States and the world through its eyes.

From the Iranian point of view, the United States has made two fundamental demands of Iran. The first is that Iran halt its military nuclear program. The second, a much broader demand, is that Iran stop engaging in what the United States calls terrorism. This ranges from support for Hezbollah to support for Shiite factions in Iraq. In return, the United States is prepared to call for a suspension of sanctions against Iran.

For Tehran, however, the suspension of sanctions is much too small a price to pay for major strategic concessions. First, the sanctions don’t work very well. Sanctions only work when most powers are prepared to comply with them. Neither the Russians nor the Chinese are prepared to systematically comply with sanctions, so there is little that Iran can afford that it can’t get. Iran’s problem is that it cannot afford much. Its economy is in shambles due more to internal problems than to sanctions. Therefore, in the Iranian point of view, the United States is asking for strategic concessions, yet offering very little in return.
The Nuclear Question

Meanwhile, merely working on a nuclear device — regardless of how close or far Iran really is from having one — provides Iran with a dramatically important strategic lever. The Iranians learned from the North Korean experience that the United States has a nuclear fetish. Having a nuclear program alone was more important to Pyongyang than actually having nuclear weapons. U.S. fears that North Korea might someday have a nuclear device resulted in significant concessions from the United States, Japan and South Korea.

The danger of having such a program is that the United States — or some other country — might attack and destroy the associated facilities. Therefore, the North Koreans created a high level of uncertainty as to just how far along they were on the road to having a nuclear device and as to how urgent the situation was, raising and lowering alarms like a conductor in a symphony. The Iranians are following the same strategy. They are constantly shifting from a conciliatory tone to an aggressive one, keeping the United States and Israel under perpetual psychological pressure. The Iranians are trying to avoid an attack by keeping the intelligence ambiguous. Tehran’s ideal strategy is maintaining maximum ambiguity and anxiety in the West while minimizing the need to strike immedi ately. Actually obtaining a bomb would increase the danger of an attack in the period between a successful test and the deployment of a deliverable device.

What the Iranians get out of this is exactly what the North Koreans got: disproportionate international attention and a lever on other topics, along with something that could be sacrificed in negotiations. They also have a chance of actually developing a deliverable device in the confusion surrounding its progress. If so, Iran would become invasion- and even harassment-proof thanks to its apparent instability and ideology. From Tehran’s perspective, abandoning its nuclear program without substantial concessions, none of which have materialized as yet, would be irrational. And the Iranians expect a large payoff from all this.
Radical Islamists, Iraq and Afghanistan

This brings us to the Hezbollah/Iraq question, which in fact represents two very different issues. Iraq constitutes the greatest potential strategic threat to Iran. This is as ancient as Babylon and Persia, as modern as the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s. Iran wants guarantees that Iraq will never threaten it, and that U.S. forces in Iraq will never pose a threat to Iran. Tehran does not want promises alone; it wants a recognized degree of control over the Iraqi government, or at least negative control that would allow it to stop Baghdad from doing things Iran doesn’t want. To achieve this, Iran systematically has built its influence among factions i n Iraq, permitting it to block Iraqi policies that Iran regards as dangerous.

The American demand that Iran stop meddling in Iraqi policies strikes the Iranians as if the United States is planning to use the new Baghdad regime to restore the regional balance of power. In fact, that is very much on Washington’s mind. This is completely unacceptable to Iran, although it might benefit the United States and the region. From the Iranian point of view, a fully neutral Iraq — with its neutrality guaranteed by Iranian influence — is the only acceptable outcome. The Iranians regard the American demand that Iran not meddle in Iraq as directly threatening Iranian national security.

There is then the issue of Iranian support for Hezbollah, Hamas and other radical Islamist groups. Between 1979 and 2001, Iran represented the background of the Islamic challenge to the West: The Shia represented radical Islam. When al Qaeda struck, Iran and the Shia lost this place of honor. Now, al Qaeda has faded and Iran wants to reclaim its place. It can do that by supporting Hezbollah, a radical Shiite group that directly challenges Israel, as well as Hamas — a radical Sunni group — thus showing that Iran speaks for all of Islam, a powerful position in an arena that matters a great deal to Iran and the region. Iran’s support for these groups help s it achieve a very important goal at little risk. Meanwhile, the U.S. demand that Iran end this support is not matched by any meaningful counteroffer or by a significant threat.

Moreover, Tehran dislikes the Obama-Petraeus strategy in Afghanistan. That strategy involves talking with the Taliban, a group that Iran has been hostile toward historically. The chance that the United States might install a Taliban-linked government in Afghanistan represents a threat to Iran second only to the threat posed to it by Iraq.

The Iranians see themselves as having been quite helpful to the United States in both Iraq and Afghanistan, as they helped Washington topple both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. In 2001, they offered to let U.S. aircraft land in Iran, and assured Washington of the cooperation of pro-Iranian factions in Afghanistan. In Iraq, they provided intelligence and helped keep the Shiite population relatively passive after the invasion in 2003. But Iranians see Washington as having betrayed implicit understandings that in return for these services, the Iranians would enjoy a degree of influence in both countries. And the U.S. opening to the Taliban is the last straw.
Obama’s Greetings in Context

Iran views Obama’s New Year greetings within this context. To them, Obama has not addressed the core issues between the two countries. In fact, apart from videos, Obama’s position on Iran does not appear different from the Bush position. The Iranian leadership does not see why it should respond more favorably to the Obama administration than it did to the Bush administration. Tehran wants to be very sure that Obama understands that the willingness alone to talk is insufficient; some indications of what is to be discussed and what might be offered are necessary.

Many in the U.S. administration believe that the weak Iranian economy might shape the upcoming Iranian presidential election. Undoubtedly, the U.S. greetings were timed to influence the election. Washington has tried to influence internal Iranian politics for decades, constantly searching for reformist elements. The U.S. hope is that someone might be elected in Iran who is so obsessed with the economy that he would trade away strategic and geopolitical interests in return for some sort of economic aid. There are undoubtedly candidates who would be interested in economic aid, but none who are prepared to trade away strategic interests. Nor could they even if they wanted to. The Iran-Iraq war is burned into the popular Iranian consciousness; any candidate who appeared willing to see a strong Iraq would lose the election. American analysts are constantly confusing an Iranian interest in economic aid with a willingness to abandon core interests. But this hasn’t happened, and isn’t happening now.

This is not to say that the Iranians won’t bargain. Beneath the rhetoric, they are practical to the extreme. Indeed, the rhetoric is part of the bargaining. What is not clear is whether Obama is prepared to bargain. What will he give for the things he wants? Economic aid is not enough for Iran, and in any event, the idea of U.S. economic aid for Iran during a time of recession is a non-starter. Is Obama prepared to offer Iran a dominant voice in Iraq and Afghanistan? How insistent is Obama on the Hezbollah and Hamas issue? What will he give if Iran shuts down its nuclear program? It is not clear that Obama has answers to these questions.

Rebuilding the U.S. public image is a reasonable goal for the first 100 days of a presidency. But soon it will be summer, and the openings Obama has made will have to be walked through, with tough bargaining. In the case of Iran — one of the toughest cases of all — it is hard to see how Washington can give Tehran the things it wants because that would make Iran a major regional power. And it is hard to see how Iran could give away the things the Americans are demanding.

Obama indicated that it would take time for his message to generate a positive response from the Iranians. It is more likely that unless the message starts to take on more substance that pleases the Iranians, the response will remain unchanged. The problem wasn’t Bush or Clinton or Reagan, the problem was the reality of Iran and the United States. Only if a third power frightened the Iranians sufficiently — a third power that also threatened the United States — would U.S.-Iranian interests be brought together. But Russia, at least for now, is working very hard to be friendly with Iran.

Stratfor



Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

03 Apr 2009, 4:27 am

TallyMan wrote:
To add more fog, what if Al-Quida manage to make their own nuclear weapon from the nuclear material that has "gone missing" since the collapse of the Soviet Union? Any physics graduate can make a crude atomic bomb given the materials and an engineering workshop, it isn't difficult. I could make one myself. If Israel went up in a nuclear mushroom then it might not even be Iran that is responsible! (one clue to the source would be the "fingerprint" of the fissile material used in the bomb e.g. is it plutonium or uranium based, but may still be ambiguous)

Who do you blame with an anonymous attack? Who do you retaliate against? Who do you defend yourself against? Do you sit idly by and wait for another city to go up in the name of Islamic Fundamentalism? Do you ramp up the internal security so tight in your own country it becomes a police state or virtually under military rule - gone are the freedoms you take for granted, no free movement, checkpoints and searches everywhere.


NOT True! If it were that easy then most third world countries with Uranium deposits would already have them. HEU requires large machinery to purity AND you'll need a reactor to produce the plutonium. Nuclear weapons rely on highly precise, high-powered electronic components which are TIGHTLY CONTROLLED, along with the nuclear materials that are required.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/nuke-test.htm



zerooftheday
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 132

03 Apr 2009, 9:07 am

Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

Oh, it'd be a huge trick to make an implosion-type weapon, that requires some electronics, some plastic explosives, and a hell of a lot of brainpower, but the tech required to build a Hiroshima-type? That tech is seventy-five years old by now.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

03 Apr 2009, 10:53 am

Haliphron wrote:
NOT True!


I was referring to the ease of making a nuclear weapon if one already has the weapons grade fissile material, not unrefined uranium. I don't know which sort has gone missing from the former Soviet Union.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

03 Apr 2009, 10:56 am

zerooftheday wrote:
Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

You do realize that U-238 is a relatively harmless, stable isotope, used in such things as tank armor.


_________________
* here for the nachos.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

03 Apr 2009, 11:07 am

twoshots wrote:
zerooftheday wrote:
Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

You do realize that U-238 is a relatively harmless, stable isotope, used in such things as tank armor.


So called refined U-238 is U-235 a rarer isotope of the element. U-238 is radioactive but it cannot sustain a fission reaction. That is why U-235 is required. Refining U-238 is a non-trivial process. It cannot be done in a garage.

ruveyn



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

03 Apr 2009, 11:18 am

ruveyn wrote:
twoshots wrote:
zerooftheday wrote:
Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

You do realize that U-238 is a relatively harmless, stable isotope, used in such things as tank armor.


So called refined U-238 is U-235 a rarer isotope of the element. U-238 is radioactive but it cannot sustain a fission reaction. That is why U-235 is required. Refining U-238 is a non-trivial process. It cannot be done in a garage.

ruveyn


But plutonium is a different element and can be isolated chemically from reactor fuel after it has been used. And plutonium is fissionable.



Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

03 Apr 2009, 11:41 am

zerooftheday wrote:
Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

Oh, it'd be a huge trick to make an implosion-type weapon, that requires some electronics, some plastic explosives, and a hell of a lot of brainpower, but the tech required to build a Hiroshima-type? That tech is seventy-five years old by now.


Actually, gun-type fission weapons use U-235 which is MUCH more difficult to enrich and machine than U-238. One would also need a decent knowledge of conventional explosives to make the shape charge that fires the Uranium bullet into its target.



Atomsk
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Apr 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,423

03 Apr 2009, 11:15 pm

Nothing should be done about it. If they use them, something not involving using nuclear weapons on them should be done.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

03 Apr 2009, 11:28 pm

Haliphron wrote:
zerooftheday wrote:
Somewhat true!

If they already had the refined U-238, a good group of machinists and a physicist could pretty easily make a Hiroshima-type weapon. It was stupid-simple by modern standards, literally just a gun firing a U-238 bullet into a similar target hard enough to start the reaction.

Oh, it'd be a huge trick to make an implosion-type weapon, that requires some electronics, some plastic explosives, and a hell of a lot of brainpower, but the tech required to build a Hiroshima-type? That tech is seventy-five years old by now.


Actually, gun-type fission weapons use U-235 which is MUCH more difficult to enrich and machine than U-238. One would also need a decent knowledge of conventional explosives to make the shape charge that fires the Uranium bullet into its target.


A shaped charge is an explosive designed to penetrate very resistive surfaces and focuses the power of the explosive at the point of impact. It has nothing to do with launching a projectile.



phil777
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 May 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,825
Location: Montreal, Québec

03 Apr 2009, 11:37 pm

I read something that even if Iran makes a bomb, they couldn't get it too far, maximum being Israel, and i've pretty much stopped caring about those guys -.- .



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

04 Apr 2009, 12:02 am

hester386 wrote:
What, if anything, should be done to Iran for their insistence on developing nuclear weapons? Should religious fundamentalist states be allowed by the rest of the world to develop nuclear weapons? If you don’t think Iran should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons, what do you think should be done about it? Sanctions? Military intervention? Something else?


With Obama, the USA will probably do nothing, so it will be left to Israel to take care of.