Denying the holocaust

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A matter of fact topic

It is the case. This is precisely why people deny certain events and not others. I was not presenting it as a logical argument, as ulterior motives are not a matter of logic--just politics and emotional agendas. Just as your assertion about post WW2 Israel gives away your agenda.

Are there any other examples of radical political movements being specifically held back by the law in Germany? All I know about post-war German politics is an overview of the history of East Germany and the results of the last election.

:oops: I just screwed up the poll. I had it in my head that the question was "should it be Illegal to deny.... " and so I voted NO.

The issue is really do we all have access to a free and fair media. If we do then it should be easy to set the record straight on issues.

We are all facing a concerted pernicious attack on our freedom of speech and association.

Just this week the Canadian Government refused a visa for George Galloway, a British member of parliament and vocal anti war protester. Canada's government has labelled Galloway a "national security" threat and ordered he be permanently barred from Canada because there are "reasonable grounds" to believe he is a member of a terrorist organization and/or a supporter of terrorism.

His 'support for terrorism' amounts to speaking out in defence of the people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. Galloway also provided food and other aid to the Palestinians. this effectively to makes it a crime to express solidarity with and provide humanitarian aid to these people

Galloway is nevertheless a champagne socialist prostrate at the temple of mammon, for sure

I agree that our freedoms are under serious attack and a lot of people out there don't even seen to know,care or believe it

it's going to get bad imo

OK. Dumb question time... Why were laws introduced making it illegal to deny the Jewish holocaust? The only two things that spring to mind are:

1. Denial would offend survivors of the death camps or the families of those killed... Ok but surely not worthy of a law forbidding it.

2. There is an old idiom along the lines of "Those that forget the lessons of history are condemned to relive it". So in other words if everyone ended up believing the Jewish holocaust never happened then such a thing could happen again and people would be less suspicious... thinking "no, can't be happening - people don't disappear by the million into death camps"; making a repeat of history more likely.

Anyone know?

Hmm, it's contentious but in 1946 i guess it was a different situation vis a vi press et al but I'd hazard a guess that it's partially attributable to the position that it largely precludes criticism of the Israeli state in it's policy towards land rights and human rights of the Palestinians.

Thing is I have Jewish friends who are really open minded and one of them will totally agree with you that the official account is off mark

a lot of stuff was about demonising the Germans too.. soap, shrunken heads etc - its clear that these claims were propagandic fantasy concocted by the NKVD and to a lesser extent the western allied forces...but even now some people will say that it's fact!

If you want facts, read The Theory and Practice of Hell. Then judge for yourself.

actually, the soap part is very true. I live in a town where a factory of "human soap" was situated and it still exists as a museum/reminder of it. the whole process is very well documented (the author of the recipe was very proud of himself and made sure his ideas lasted).

In Germany and Austria, both those reasons apply. Holocaust denial coming from there would be especially offensive. A third reason is the German experience with distorting history. One factor that favoured the rise of the Nazi party was the claim that Germany was holding its own in World War I, but that the armed forces were stabbed in the back by politicians. Not true, but widely believed. Add a few related ideas, and there was a widespread belief that Germany was being unjustly held down by other countries. A party promising to reverse this looked good to many people.

After World War II, it was decided that the holocaust should be remembered, so that reasonable people couldn't so easily be led to believe that the Nazis were a good thing. After World War I, history lessons in German schools, and probably most conversations in the pubs, presented the outcome of the war as a great wrong perpetrated against Germany. Making holocaust denial illegal was part of the effort to prevent the same thing from happening again. Another part is that World War II in Europe and the Atlantic is unequivocally (and correctly) presented as a war of aggression chosen by the German government.


It doesn't. If people were logical about these things, it should motivate greater concern for all human rights, not just the human rights of some. But the right wing Israeli lobby would like people to believe that Jewish victim status in the holocaust turns everything Israel does into self defense, and it's been an effective tactic.


I think if the official count is 50% off either way from the true number, it really doesn't matter all that much. It it's 3 million instead of 6 million, I will not conclude that the Nazis weren't really all that bad after all. The point is not to play a numbers game. The point is that genocide was a deliberate policy, the Nazis imposed laws in all the territories they held to catch all those they wanted to kill, they went at it in a systematic fashion, and they made an industry out of extermination.


If you want facts, read The Theory and Practice of Hell. Then judge for yourself.

Sever Plocker



Stalin's Jews

We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish

Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion

Here's a particularly forlorn historical date: Almost 90 years ago, between the 19th and 20th of December 1917, in the midst of the Bolshevik revolution and civil war, Lenin signed a decree calling for the establishment of The All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, also known as Cheka.



Within a short period of time, Cheka became the largest and cruelest state security organization. Its organizational structure was changed every few years, as were its names: From Cheka to GPU, later to NKVD, and later to KGB.



We cannot know with certainty the number of deaths Cheka was responsible for in its various manifestations, but the number is surely at least 20 million, including victims of the forced collectivization, the hunger, large purges, expulsions, banishments, executions, and mass death at Gulags.



Whole population strata were eliminated: Independent farmers, ethnic minorities, members of the bourgeoisie, senior officers, intellectuals, artists, labor movement activists, "opposition members" who were defined completely randomly, and countless members of the Communist party itself.



In his new, highly praised book "The War of the World, "Historian Niall Ferguson writes that no revolution in the history of mankind devoured its children with the same unrestrained appetite as did the Soviet revolution. In his book on the Stalinist purges, Tel Aviv University's Dr. Igal Halfin writes that Stalinist violence was unique in that it was directed internally.



Lenin, Stalin, and their successors could not have carried out their deeds without wide-scale cooperation of disciplined "terror officials," cruel interrogators, snitches, executioners, guards, judges, perverts, and many bleeding hearts who were members of the progressive Western Left and were deceived by the Soviet regime of horror and even provided it with a kosher certificate.



All these things are well-known to some extent or another, even though the former Soviet Union's archives have not yet been fully opened
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to the public. But who knows about this? Within Russia itself, very few people have been brought to justice for their crimes in the NKVD's and KGB's service. The Russian public discourse today completely ignores the question of "How could it have happened to us?" As opposed to Eastern European nations, the Russians did not settle the score with their Stalinist past.



And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the "bloodthirsty dwarf."



Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his Book "Stalin: Court of the Red Star", Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist killing machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.



Stalin's close associates and loyalists included member of the Central Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him as the "first Stalinist" and adds that those starving to death in Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind aside from the Nazi horrors and Mao's terror in China, did not move Kaganovich.



Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.



In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges. In a fascinating lecture at a Tel Aviv University convention this week, Dr. Halfin described the waves of soviet terror as a "carnival of mass murder," "fantasy of purges", and "essianism of evil." Turns out that Jews too, when they become captivated by messianic ideology, can become great murderers, among the greatest known by modern history.



The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and "Soviet people." Therefore, we find it easy to ignore their origin and "play dumb": What do we have to do with them? But let's not forget them. My own view is different. I find it unacceptable that a person will be considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but not considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things.



Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of "our hangmen," who served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment. After all, others will always remind us of their origin.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 99,00.html

To just spruik your opinions without citing supporting evidence is meaningless. You are asking us to ignore well documented interviews with survivors, guards, rescuing army units, physical evidence, German military documentation, film footage, civilian interviews, just the creation of the ghettos by itself goes a long way to suggest the authorities regard of the Jews.

You talk about camp prisoners that wanted to go with the retreating Germans, what nationality and subset of the prison were these people. The cyanide gas was used primarily to delouse, so the humans were used as coathangers and their death was a side effect?!

So sources and evidence please,

It is true that the Jews have laid claim to the Holocaust as all about them. The degree to which the political, disabled, religious, and other cultures that were also targeted have been left out of the discussions is a travesty.

Can you give me some details about that so I can look into it for myself?(again). I am surprised that I do not know about this factory musuem tbh. But it shows that I still need to do more searching. I know that there are things which are still thought of today as fact which are not - for instance the shrunken heads at Buchenwald main camp which it was shown beyond doubt to have been anti german propaganda at the end of the war - that's not to underestimate the atrocities of the NSDAP, of course.