Should parents be jailed in these cases?

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greenblue
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10 Apr 2009, 1:13 am

timeisdead wrote:

I think if parents are irresponsible enough to give birth to a child that will be blind, deaf, and suffering due to syphilis; they deserve to be locked up for the rest of their lives. Ditto for giving their child HIV. They should have been responsible enough to look at their health and the health of their sexual partners.

Yeah, well, unwanted pregnancies seem irresponsable enough, though abortion seems a good choice for it, no matter what pro-life lunatics say

, but yeah, there are many people that shouldn't have kids.

normally_impaired wrote:

This requires an accurate survey of people not born to decide if they are satisfied to remain that way.

well, you can never miss something you never had.

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Sand
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10 Apr 2009, 1:25 am

greenblue wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Yeah, well, unwanted pregnancies seem irresponsable enough, though abortion seems a good choice for it, no matter what pro-life lunatics say

, but yeah, there are many people that shouldn't have kids.

normally_impaired wrote:

This requires an accurate survey of people not born to decide if they are satisfied to remain that way.

well, you can never miss something you never had.

Normally impaired?

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10 Apr 2009, 4:53 am

makuranososhi wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Fayed wrote:

Wait a min, since when can everyone afford contraception, STD testing, abortions, and all the stuff being thrown around here? Not everyone lives in a 1st world country.

Here's a question, is it still the parents fault if they didn't know they had the STD that cause the deformity?

you say you would move out of Botswana if you were HIV free there. And how exactly would you afford it? It it's like its an area know for its rich people.

People should be educated on the consequences of their actions. If I couldn't afford to move out of Botswana, I would remain sexually abstinent.

You seem to imply that sex is the province of the affluent; I disagree heartily. While I cannot condone their actions, I cannot condemn them to imprisonment for it either. Education, care, support... punishment and prohibition have been shown time and again to be largely ineffective in regards to vices.

M.

I never said that sex should be the province of the affluent; I suggested it should be the province of the responsible. I wouldn't force people in Botswana to be completely abstinent. I am saying if my nation had an HIV rate of 24%, I would abstain from sex unless I found a person I truly loved (after testing him twice for the HIV virus). An hour or so of pleasure isn't worth the risk of contracting a deadly disease.

timeisdead
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10 Apr 2009, 4:55 am

normally_impaired wrote:

What about those who got an HIV test but the test itself failed, should these people who unknowingly have HIV still be punished? Then you have to wonder about he prenatal testing, if the test is flawed, is it fair for someone to not be born based on the inaccurate assumption that they may possibly have some kind of a disability? What is worse for a child, being blind/deaf or not being alive in the first place?

If the testing is flawed, then the parents are not to blame.

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10 Apr 2009, 5:44 am

timeisdead wrote:

I am saying if my nation had an HIV rate of 24%, I would abstain from sex unless I found a person I truly loved (after testing him twice for the HIV virus). An hour or so of pleasure isn't worth the risk of contracting a deadly disease.

Maybe you are not clear on something.

A) the average people in those countries dont have access to all sorts of tests.
B) they could not afford them if they did.
C) a good deal of them have no idea such tests exist.
D) instead they rely on their traditional "medical" treatments.
E) marriage for people outside of the first world is a means to security.
F) children are a sign of affluence. Like that car you want?
G) they marry a lot younger(and inexperienced) than you are accounting for.
H) they marry the first person they love.
I) or whoever their parents arrange for them
J) have you ever been in love? People do really stupid things when in love.

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10 Apr 2009, 6:34 am

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

I think it's the mindset of throwing people in jail for not very serious crimes that is one of the factors that adds up to America having the most prisoners in the world, both by percentage and number.

I can say otherwise in four words: People's Republic of China...

Really?

From the Straight Dope:

Quote:

According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College London, the U.S. currently has the largest documented prison population in the world, both in absolute and proportional terms. We've got roughly 2.03 million people behind bars, or 701 per 100,000 population. China has the second-largest number of prisoners (1.51 million, for a rate of 117 per 100,000), and Russia has the second-highest rate (606 per 100,000, for a total of 865,000). Russia had the highest rate for years, but has released hundreds of thousands of prisoners since 1998; meanwhile the U.S. prison population has grown by even more. Rounding out the top ten, with rates from 554 to 437, are Belarus, Bermuda (UK), Kazakhstan, the Virgin Islands (U.S.), the Cayman Islands (UK), Turkmenistan, Belize, and Suriname, which you'll have to agree puts America in interesting company. South Africa, a longtime star performer on the list, has dropped to 15th place (402) since the dismantling of apartheid.

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greenblue
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10 Apr 2009, 1:31 pm

Sand wrote:

Normally impaired?

Oops! I had a quote from normally_impaired in my post to reply but decided not to, sorry.

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makuranososhi
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10 Apr 2009, 1:52 pm

timeisdead wrote:

normally_impaired wrote:

If the testing is flawed, then the parents are not to blame.

Now we're creating a system of grey areas and qualifications, and the criteria used are rather subjective and arbitrary. As Fuzzy said, those tests aren't necessarily available much less affordable in such areas - by proxy, your argument makes sex something only for the wealthy, those who can afford to do so under your standards. I'm in no way endorsing bringing unsupported life into this world, and to knowingly and willingly do so with such a risk to the infant's health is reprehensible. But I find the condemnation of people whose life is so completely different and foreign rather unpleasant, and not something I can agree with in any way, shape or form.

M.

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10 Apr 2009, 2:08 pm

Quote:

A) the average people in those countries dont have access to all sorts of tests.
B) they could not afford them if they did.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5346a2.htm

Although there is a long way to go, for those receiving prenatal care in Botswana, there is mandatory testing for HIV. A greater number of women are receiving testing for HIV. There is even free testing for HIV in Botswana. If the patient contracted HIV, free treatment is also available.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... ting_x.htm

Quote:

C) a good deal of them have no idea such tests exist.

More decline testing due to the fear of having it and the stigma attached to the virus.

Quote:

E) marriage for people outside of the first world is a means to security.

In other words, they would rather their women contract HIV than farm or work outside of the home?

Quote:

F) children are a sign of affluence. Like that car you want?

Health is considerably more important than wealth or social status.

Quote:

G) they marry a lot younger(and inexperienced) than you are accounting for.
H) they marry the first person they love.
I) or whoever their parents arrange for them

I had some knowledge about the HIV virus since I was 5 years old. As the HIV virus is extremely rampant in Botswana, it's quite likely that they will hear about it prior to their marriages.

Quote:

J) have you ever been in love? People do really stupid things when in love.

That is true. In other words, these women voluntarily give themselves a death sentence so they wouldn't have to mourn the loss of their husbands? Or is it that their love is so potent that death would be better than never feeling intimacy with their lovers?
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Sand
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10 Apr 2009, 2:15 pm

timeisdead wrote:

Quote:

A) the average people in those countries dont have access to all sorts of tests.
B) they could not afford them if they did.

Quote:

C) a good deal of them have no idea such tests exist.

More decline testing due to the fear of having it and the stigma attached to the virus.

Quote:

E) marriage for people outside of the first world is a means to security.

In other words, they would rather their women contract HIV than farm or work outside of the home?

Quote:

F) children are a sign of affluence. Like that car you want?

Health is considerably more important than wealth or social status.

Quote:

G) they marry a lot younger(and inexperienced) than you are accounting for.
H) they marry the first person they love.
I) or whoever their parents arrange for them

I had some knowledge about the HIV virus since I was 5 years old. As the HIV virus is extremely rampant in Botswana, it's quite likely that they will hear about it prior to their marriages.

Quote:

J) have you ever been in love? People do really stupid things when in love.

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

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10 Apr 2009, 4:11 pm

Agree with everything Sand said. And I'm very wary about the idea of people having their bodily activities, sex and pregnancy included, policed heavily.

timeisdead
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10 Apr 2009, 4:21 pm

Quote:

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

This is why women from those nations should be encouraged to work outside of the home. It should also be made possible that a woman can call for her husband's arrest in such an event.

Sand
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10 Apr 2009, 11:21 pm

timeisdead wrote:

Quote:

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

This is why women from those nations should be encouraged to work outside of the home. It should also be made possible that a woman can call for her husband's arrest in such an event.

Although that is a laudable concept many African women have been imprisoned or beaten to death by their spouses or officials. You cannot morally punish a woman who is a victim of her culture.

timeisdead
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11 Apr 2009, 2:29 am

Sand wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Quote:

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

This is why women from those nations should be encouraged to work outside of the home. It should also be made possible that a woman can call for her husband's arrest in such an event.

Although that is a laudable concept many African women have been imprisoned or beaten to death by their spouses or officials. You cannot morally punish a woman who is a victim of her culture.

If a husband brings home the HIV virus from visiting a prostitute or whatnot, it is he who should be arrested. African women should no longer have to tolerate this blatant abuse.

Sand
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11 Apr 2009, 2:41 am

timeisdead wrote:

Sand wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Quote:

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

This is why women from those nations should be encouraged to work outside of the home. It should also be made possible that a woman can call for her husband's arrest in such an event.

Although that is a laudable concept many African women have been imprisoned or beaten to death by their spouses or officials. You cannot morally punish a woman who is a victim of her culture.

If a husband brings home the HIV virus from visiting a prostitute or whatnot, it is he who should be arrested. African women should no longer have to tolerate this blatant abuse.

It's lovely to have the privilege of looking from a distance and self righteously demanding what the culture does not grant. The male dominated cultures indicated do not revise from external comment. Your impotent advice is not helpful.

timeisdead
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11 Apr 2009, 3:35 am

Sand wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Sand wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

Quote:

And in many African cultures husbands very frequently have affairs and bring home the disease and it is not possible for the wives to refuse their husbands.

This is why women from those nations should be encouraged to work outside of the home. It should also be made possible that a woman can call for her husband's arrest in such an event.

Although that is a laudable concept many African women have been imprisoned or beaten to death by their spouses or officials. You cannot morally punish a woman who is a victim of her culture.

If a husband brings home the HIV virus from visiting a prostitute or whatnot, it is he who should be arrested. African women should no longer have to tolerate this blatant abuse.

Did I honestly imply that my posts would change the state of the world? You seem to be implying that only the powerful and influential have a right to their opinion. According to you, a person's opinions on world affairs are worthless if they aren't in a position of power, have massive influence, or if happen to live outside of the nation in which there is an issue. Of course ordinary people must never voice their distaste for the morally reprehensible.

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