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pandabear
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01 May 2009, 5:55 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

Remember, too: It was the Persians who permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and to rebuild the temple.



techstepgenr8tion
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01 May 2009, 6:10 pm

pandabear wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

Remember, too: It was the Persians who permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and to rebuild the temple.


While that was long before Islam it very well be a fair enough observation to the extent that Persian Muslims may be much more tolerant of Jews than Arab Muslims just by their heritage and past kinship perhaps? It would be nice to think that kind of thing is stronger than religious antipathies.



Sand
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02 May 2009, 2:17 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
Yes, I am aware that Wasp is an acronym for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

That was precisely my point.

That African Americans are statistically and disproportionately more likely to end up in prison than the white anglo-saxon population in the US. And African Americans are statistically and disproportionately more likely to end up on death row in US prisons.

You might want to do some research into the statistics about crime and punishment in your own country.

That was precisely because the (in-)justice system in the US is loaded against African Americans. In many respects, African Americans are treated as second class citizens in the US. In terms of being denied educational and employment opportunities. In terms of being disproportionately more likely to end up in prison, more likely to end up on death row than their white counterparts.

Why is that, do you think? Do you think that African Americans are intrinsically more likely to be more criminally inclined than their white counterparts? Or do you perhaps think that maybe, just maybe, it's because of institutional racism in the US, the justice system treating African Americans as second class citizens?

Some of you Americans here are coming over all superior about how another nation apparently treats people of different religions or ethnicities as second class citizens, weighing in with your opinions about how abhorrent such treatment is, when the reality is that your own country is similarly institutionally racist and/or 'religion-ist' against other groups of people, treating them as second class citizens, due to racial and religious profiling.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and all that.

Are you people up to speed now? Or is it still too hard for you to understand, do you need diagrams? Or maybe you need me to put it into nursery level language? :roll:


I'll be fair and admit that this is at least a very colorful tirade but - content, you won't impress many people with the logic - mainly because anyone can drink pop-culture Koolaid, its not a gift.

Addressing some of the topics you brought up before:

Why do African Americans go to jail more often than their English counterparts? I might have to ask that about that regarding England as well. Here the problem is they were raped twice - first by slavery then by guys like Elridge Cleaver and Saul Alinsky who decided to use them as the prolatariot to institute socialism - that and the poverty they were in created also another layer of problems; mainly the attitude that unless your successful through sports or music, if you go through the 'white man's' system - you'll be hated by your own race to a large extent for being an Uncle Tom, a sell-out, for not being authentically 'black'. That kind of hatred and biggotry toward their own though is political, a larger and larger minority of more conservative African Americans is growing who wants to get off the system and wants nothing to do with the culture that's abounded for the last thirty years through guys like Sharpton, Jackson, and yes - Wright to add another. The most disgusting thing that our lib congress did recently was shooting down the school voucher system in DC - for a second the honor students had a chance to get away from the inner city schools; teachers unions however couldn't have that happen because its really about them not the kids (much like its about the auto unions not GM/Chrysler/Ford).

Why did Katrina disproportionately hit blacks? I have to ask why the flooding in the midwest two years ago that caused so much devastation and destroyed all kinds of property only hit whites? Regardless of what you believe in a religious scope; acts of nature are under no one's control. It is however perfectly fair to ask questions such as "Why weren't these people evacuated?" "Why weren't the levies in better condition?" "Why wasn't FEMA there immediately?". Answering those questions in order the mayor and state governor failed miserably in corroborating the evacuation efforts, the local and state governments barely spent a dime on the levies (Louisiana was a very politically corrupt state up until Katrina - that got people angry enough to vote out the powers that were and clean house enough to flip it around completely). As for FEMA waiting 3 days? We have some pesky provisions in the constitution regarding states rights, military being sent into states - Bush screwed up horribly in the way he always did; barely mumbled a word in his own defense or explained why things were done as they were.

Pro-lifers blowing up abortion clinics - that's a weird one to bring up, especially if you want to bring it up as something symbolic of 'all things American'; mainly on its pure rarity but also that you realize we're looking into laws that will force doctors to perform abortions regardless of what their religious outlook is and to do so could be removal of their right to practice medicine and even jail? Our country fights with words over abortion issue, mainly in the sense of just how much human potential is deleted from existence and there is a *lot* of legitimate ethical concern to be had regarding the practice thereof.

Coming back to again, African Americans/African Brits being in jail more than their WASP counterparts - it is the difference of the amount of crime caused and I'll agree with some of the socialists here that poverty breeds crime, I think those of all colors thrown in jail are thrown in jail over crime not color - the act matters but, true enough, the economic conditions of the cultural group set the stage. Here's where a conservative (likely Republican) and a liberal (Democrat) differ - liberals want to give them more or do things to redistribute income to them by taking it from the rich; sounds noble on emotion impression for all of a minute until you realize that it does absolutely nothing to help them mobilize. A conservative (again, likely Republican) would rather give them the keys to the kingdom in terms of education, all the opportunity to excel, to become upper class or upper-middle class, plenty of African Americans do so. The real institutional racism - its in the race bating business and the handout culture; afterall if a minority ceased to be victimized whether by true racism or evil or by its own shadow - certain parties would lose a huge voting block. Its why people in the U.S. will also speak the same rambling drivel in the U.S. as well about the Evil Empire of the U.S. and how we oppress religions, genders, peoples, and when you do the math and research - the really gruesome thing you find is that its liberalism suppressing and holding these people down because they'll constantly be driving them to extort rather than achieve.

To me, when people run on about the topics you brought up - it sounds like they went to college and got brainwashed rather than taught.


To openly deny discrimination of blacks in the USA is so ludicrous as to border on the insane. Do your own research. There's lots of information on the web.



techstepgenr8tion
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02 May 2009, 11:08 am

Sand wrote:
To openly deny discrimination of blacks in the USA is so ludicrous as to border on the insane. Do your own research. There's lots of information on the web.


Sand, this is classic of you. You open a timeframe and coverage of degrees so wide I could drive a bus through it. So if most blacks today have every opportunity to excel and one out of ten white human beings happens to be an a***hole/bi--- that treats fellow whites/latinos/asians/indians like crap and also happens to be racist against blacks or other people of a different breed - by your reckoning does that suffice to say that - at this moment today - we're still a willfully racially repressive country? I think you've missed a lot of the generational changes that have been going on, you'd probably have to try speaking to younger people on this rather than aging 'great generation' or 'babyboomers' - largely too late for them anyway.

Also Sand, these breezy one-liners really have to go. You really can't disrespect a person your debating much more than refusing to put any more effort forward than to continually jab them with one sentence replies that don't even engage the content of what they bring up (which you've quite honestly made an MO of). If you can't directly grapple someone on their own grounds it tends to show that you don't pick apart or analyze your own reality much. This time you got a short paragraph from me discussing the fallacy of what you threw out there, next time I doubt I'll even be generous enough to throw you anything more than a one-liner either.



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02 May 2009, 11:17 am

Sand is right though. Even in the good ol' 21st century, discrimination against people of colour is widespread in North America (I'm not going to pretend Canada is perfect, I'll openly talk of its racism, they can't just point a finger south and pretend to be superior) as is the system of white privilege. Things are still not equal, and if you chalk it up to personal failings of People of colour, then you're deluding yourself in the ways in which white privilege works in society today.
Even as a type this, there are still some parts of the country where people of colour have to fear driving, neighborhoods where they are bullied out of moving to, and jobs they are denied based on prejudice, and it's not just in the deep south either.



techstepgenr8tion
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02 May 2009, 11:47 am

Bluestocking wrote:
Sand is right though. Even in the good ol' 21st century, discrimination against people of colour is widespread in North America (I'm not going to pretend Canada is perfect, I'll openly talk of its racism, they can't just point a finger south and pretend to be superior) as is the system of white privilege. Things are still not equal, and if you chalk it up to personal failings of People of colour, then you're deluding yourself in the ways in which white privilege works in society today.
Even as a type this, there are still some parts of the country where people of colour have to fear driving, neighborhoods where they are bullied out of moving to, and jobs they are denied based on prejudice, and it's not just in the deep south either.


Here's my problem with that train of thought; any country or place is going to have pockets of some rather stupid people. In my field of work as a professional I work with many successful African Americans, talk to clients who are successful African Americans - they made it, they have good job, they have good minds, there's nothing I or anyone I know would even think about in terms of whether or not their equals; its a no-brainer.

What we still have in terms of racial economic inequality is something brought on by pre-1960's economic conditions they were forced to live in (which was in fact dead wrong), then after the 1960's there were a lot of very toxic influences that grabbed hold - just like many more a***hole whites I'm sure really were playing games with it up through the 1970's and 1980's. My argument is this - today - not in 1950, not in 1960 or 1970 - we're doing absolutely anything *but* trying to hold them down. I as an American, as a human being, do what I can to influence culture within my own sphere - beyond electing officials who see as having policies that make our country a better place for people of all races - much past that I have no more or less power over another 300 million people as the next person has over me; that can be a good or bad thing depending on the situation.

My argument right now though is this - the games being played today are a joke. People want to try and call guys like Limbaugh or Hannity racist, where as racism will live on forever so long as race-politics stays alive and well. I as one human being in a sea of many can do what I can to say that I'm absolutely against discrimination, its a joke, its completely childish and irrational behavior that makes our world worse for no reason whatsoever and regardless of whether or not its biologically encoded in us as kids rather than taught without words by secretly bigoted parents (I think Claire's right on this one - evolutionary psychology) - real adults grow out of it and pitch it out the window.

That said though, I can't find a single reason to do the 9th century flagellation, as a 4th generation member of immigrants emotionally whip myself in the back all day over complex problems that everyone in their right mind wants to solve. I also can't understand the idea of taking religion and fiscal conservatism, both of which have profoundly positive effects on minorities when they follow at least fiscal conservatism and their own religion at least helps as a moral compass (like anyone else) - because a few dipsh-ts run around in white cloth or happen to vote Republican because they're less associated with pro-minority in the media; I think making the direct relation between conservatism, religion, and racial oppression is extremely intellectually dishonest. True, white racists can use it to hide out (though the black GOP thankfully is growing in great strides) - to me that's the causal relationship, not conservative + christian makes racism. I bring that up only because, in my rounds here and the aggregate opinion that keeps getting pitched, it seems like that's a reocuring theme and I think it needs to be spoken back to sometimes.



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02 May 2009, 2:46 pm

Using the example of "But I have black friends who made it!" is ridiculous and ignores the larger picture. And talking about conservatism is derailing the point, liberals and conservatives are equally racist. Racism isn't just people saying the "n" word and crossing the street every time you see a person of colour approach.
Racism comes in many ominous, more subtle forms, such as having certain expectations for how people of colour are "supposed" to act, the way that racism is treated in the media (The recent craigslist killer is a perfect example, people are howling about how unexpected it is that he would do "such an awful thing", whereas if he had been a black man, I guarantee the level of surprise wouldn't be that palpable) and even simple every day acts, such as expecting a cookie and a pat on the head from your black friends because you don't have a white hood stashed in your closet. That is racism. That is reinforcing unfair social standards that are hurting non white people and keeping them from having equal footing in society.
If you want to end racism, the fastest and most effective way to do it will be to check your privilege in at the door, realize you are living with unfair advantages owing exclusively to your skin colour (as well as your gender identity, sex, economic status, etc) and be aware of how these unfairly affect everyone, and do your best to learn how to undo these unfair, largely ignored problems.
Denying your privilege and pretending everything is peachy keen for everyone if they just work hard is perhaps the most dreadful form of racism imaginable today.



techstepgenr8tion
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02 May 2009, 4:57 pm

Bluestocking wrote:
Using the example of "But I have black friends who made it!" is ridiculous and ignores the larger picture. And talking about conservatism is derailing the point, liberals and conservatives are equally racist. Racism isn't just people saying the "n" word and crossing the street every time you see a person of colour approach.
Racism comes in many ominous, more subtle forms, such as having certain expectations for how people of colour are "supposed" to act, the way that racism is treated in the media (The recent craigslist killer is a perfect example, people are howling about how unexpected it is that he would do "such an awful thing", whereas if he had been a black man, I guarantee the level of surprise wouldn't be that palpable) and even simple every day acts, such as expecting a cookie and a pat on the head from your black friends because you don't have a white hood stashed in your closet. That is racism. That is reinforcing unfair social standards that are hurting non white people and keeping them from having equal footing in society.
If you want to end racism, the fastest and most effective way to do it will be to check your privilege in at the door, realize you are living with unfair advantages owing exclusively to your skin colour (as well as your gender identity, sex, economic status, etc) and be aware of how these unfairly affect everyone, and do your best to learn how to undo these unfair, largely ignored problems.
Denying your privilege and pretending everything is peachy keen for everyone if they just work hard is perhaps the most dreadful form of racism imaginable today.


Yeah - I can't buy into that. Mainly because I'm my own person, I don't give a damn about getting cookies from anyone except myself for anything. I'm completely disinterested in the concept or race-guilt and by a lot of these definitions of unfair advantage that race-guilt is something that when you really think of that would extend to all races where parents broke their backs to give their children special privilege in education or a neighborhood with less crime - by that definition those kids as they become adults should be whipping themselves every morning for what they have and those parents should be whipping themselves every morning for the evil of selling out their economic peers to the man by being successful. It almost sounds like the most dreadful form of racism imaginable today by your standards is capitalism.



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02 May 2009, 6:09 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Also Sand, these breezy one-liners really have to go.
But that is part of his charm. :D



techstepgenr8tion
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02 May 2009, 6:43 pm

claire333 wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Also Sand, these breezy one-liners really have to go.
But that is part of his charm. :D


Heh, if that's what you wanna call it :roll: :wink:.

I'd like to think that when people want to keep it slapstick - probably better to the usual knowns who are into that kind of thing. I just figure it like this; these are big issues, when people go in and start shin-kicking someone to get a response (ie. really curt and strident comments), and keep giving one liners as answers - its really like having one over on you for being gullible enough to give them a serious reply.

Do you kinda see what I'm saying? I'm not particularly thin-skinned I guess, not so much as that its an exercise of rights without responsibilities - that's usually what gets me steamed more than anything.