The possible AS - Neanderthal link...

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Orwell
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02 May 2009, 9:28 am

claire333 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Neanderthals almost certainly did not contribute to the human genome.

I have always understood that anthropologists were not certain if neanderthals died out, were killed by cro-magnons, or absorbed into cro-magnon society. Perhaps I am mistaken in that noone knows?

The articles I've read on the topic indicate that scientists generally do not accept the idea that the Neanderthals were absorbed into the modern human population. I've heard theories about them being killed off by humans or just being displaced, but there seems to be a consensus that humans and neanderthals did not interbreed.

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02 May 2009, 9:42 am

claire333 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Neanderthals almost certainly did not contribute to the human genome.

I have always understood that anthropologists were not certain if neanderthals died out, were killed by cro-magnons, or absorbed into cro-magnon society. Perhaps I am mistaken in that noone knows?

There are definite indications from psychological profiles that G.W.Bush was a Neanderthal but Cheney is something of an enigma. There is a rather interesting but unconfirmed theory that Cheney was assembled from slaughterhouse discards that were left out in the yard to ripen a bit before being raised on a midnight platform in an old Teutonic castle during a thunderstorm with a lightning rod stuck in his bellybutton.

Dussel
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02 May 2009, 11:14 am

claire333 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Neanderthals almost certainly did not contribute to the human genome.

I have always understood that anthropologists were not certain if neanderthals died out, were killed by cro-magnons, or absorbed into cro-magnon society. Perhaps I am mistaken in that noone knows?

It was until recently not clear, because we didn't have an idea about the Neanderthal genome, nor about the development of the genome of modern humans. Today it quite clear that the white Europeans are decent of Africans on two reasons:

1) There is nothing in the Caucasian genome which can't be traced back to Africa

2) Since we have the Neanderthal genome there are no trace of the specifics of this genomes in the Caucasian genome

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03 May 2009, 6:02 pm

If i reckon my most recent anthropology class, Neanderthals had a tendancy for prognatism (the face is a bit more elongated). And as stated above, it is still unclear wether or not they were killed, absorbed via gene flow or etc... =/

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03 May 2009, 6:52 pm

phil777 wrote:

Killed or died - if they would be absorbed into the gene flow of Europeans there would be a trace, but there isn't.

Fuzzy
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03 May 2009, 10:25 pm

Dussel wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Killed or died - if they would be absorbed into the gene flow of Europeans there would be a trace, but there isn't.

Plus there is no established link between the two specimens that have provided DNA and the rest of the herd.

Just an interesting thought: I never hear of any extant cro-magnon DNA. It is without doubt that we are their descendants, but its odd that they compare modern DNA With Neanderthal, but I never hear of comparisons of the ancient varieties. I must be overlooking those.

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0_equals_true
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04 May 2009, 4:51 am

I read it before. It is still completely incredible, and that is even if you assume the Neanderthals did mate with modern humans, even though that is unlikely. It cherry picks which part of autism fit as well. It has a very Romanic view of Neanderthals that is unsubstantiated projection.

It is not a theory in the scientific sense. It is a hypothesis. It uses what I call assumption changing. That is assumptions based on assumptions based on assumptions, etc.

I think the 'theory' is more about appealing to the idea that we are some how a special race.

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04 May 2009, 7:58 am

0_equals_true wrote:

It is not a theory in the scientific sense. It is a hypothesis. It uses what I call assumption changing. That is assumptions based on assumptions based on assumptions, etc.

Penn and Teller call it concluding the assumption.

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Sand
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04 May 2009, 9:00 am

Dussel wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Killed or died - if they would be absorbed into the gene flow of Europeans there would be a trace, but there isn't.

Since chimpanzees and humans have common genes well into the ninetieth percentile how can you tell what genes modern man shares with Neanderthals? It would seem to me, considering human relations with chimpanzee genetics, there are likely to be quite a few.

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04 May 2009, 9:21 am

Sand wrote:

Dussel wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Killed or died - if they would be absorbed into the gene flow of Europeans there would be a trace, but there isn't.

We share also some genes with bananas ...

More seriously:

Generally: The research of genetic linages goes along the lines of specific markers which follow either the female or the male line. Those markers are very specific and are used to trace back the immigrations of humans.

Specific with chimpanzees: We have a chromosome less than apes by a merger of two ape chromosome; therefore we can't produce naturally any offspring with apes (what science will enable any time in the future - I don't know).

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04 May 2009, 10:09 am

Sand wrote:

Dussel wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Killed or died - if they would be absorbed into the gene flow of Europeans there would be a trace, but there isn't.

I can answer this.

My paternal surname is fairly common in our ethnic group(German), and the happen-stance of migrations to and from various countries have left a spotty trail of relatives. We have turned to genetic testing to trace family.

The way they do that is with a DNA sample. Science has worked out a standard rate of mutation, and they count the commonalities of those(within a standard deviation) to gain an idea of how related two people are. Points of difference indicate how far back two people are related.

In terms of antiquated DNA, they compare against all modern ethnic groups. Certain sections of DNA are identical in most members of each whole group. A difference in those indicates mutation, outbreeding, or non relation. Aberrant DNA indicates a different lineage or mutation. Chimp cousins, as it were. In my families case, those with the same last name as us have tested as having a difference comparable to the public at large: no relation. The search continues.

This is the biggest problem with Neanderthals. There are only two samples of Neanderthal DNA. And its so far back that the standard deviation is huge. We dont know how related they were to other Neanderthals, or even if multiple lineages of humanity existed.

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Orwell
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04 May 2009, 10:18 am

0_equals_true wrote:

I think the 'theory' is more about appealing to the idea that we are some how a special race.

Ah yes, the whole "Aspies are the next stage in evolution" thing again.

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04 May 2009, 12:08 pm

Orwell wrote:

0_equals_true wrote:

I think the 'theory' is more about appealing to the idea that we are some how a special race.

Ah yes, the whole "Aspies are the next stage in evolution" thing again.

No, but Debian is.

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Orwell
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04 May 2009, 12:12 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

No, but Debian is.

Debian's the previous stage in evolution. It updates somewhat more frequently than proprietary operating systems, but not often enough to keep up with the fast pace of development in GNU/Linux.

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