Socialism made simple, why it doesn't work

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ruveyn
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07 May 2009, 3:29 am

Haliphron wrote:

What about international black markets like the drug trade, arms trade, and sex trafficking? As far as states having a monopoly on violence that is what governments have been doing for thousands of years. Certain modern states permit the legal ownership of private property. But EVEN during the cold war there was illegal buying, selling, and smuggling of goods among citizens. What Im talking about here is the Black Market which states expend billions trying to dismantle but it continues because of the ceaseless demand and suppliers willing to meet that demand no matter what.

One of the survival modes our our species (and this goes back hundreds of thousands of years, preceding agriculture) is trade and specialization of labor. These modalities are How We Made It. Once land became valuable and worth fighting over, our propertarian tendencies kicked in. Human tribes and families have been fighting over land and grazing access since God invented dirt.

Both capitalism and socialism are founded on the concept of property. The main struggle and argument is who owns what and who shall manage the property? Who shall grow the grain and who shall eat the bread made from it? And Taxation is as old as civilization itself.

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DentArthurDent
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07 May 2009, 4:17 am

Orwell wrote:

Well, every attempt to set up socialism has failed even worse, as partially evidenced by the eagerness of modern-day socialists such as yourself to disown every openly socialist state in human history.

Off course we disown them, just because a state claims to be socialist does not make it so. Certainly Russia before the attack by imperial armies was on the way, Yugoslavia was also heading in the right direction for a while . Does Socialism require a great deal to thought, care and caution to get right, absolutely it does. Should we give up the struggle for what is, after all, the most democratic ideology because of this? absolutely not!
As to you calling me a 'modern day socialist' well us modern day socialists have been fighting against the bastardisation of the ideology since the early 20's

Orwell wrote:

in the early days Capitalism has had remarkable successes

absolutely correct, but it has now run its course and we need to evolve.

Orwell wrote:

war actually is significantly less frequent and also less destructive than it has been at any point in human history

Minor conflicts between two or three nation states MAY have declined ( I am not a war historian, and do not have the stats) but certainly the planet has never seen the sort of global conflagration that capitalism has produced, as for less destructive are you kidding?

Orwell wrote:

Were world wars necessary to save capitalism twice? I can't think of the three ties capitalism has nearly collapsed, .

Ok I was being a little disingenuous there you can probably count the great depression out :wink:

but for certain capitalism was in crisis in 1914 as it is today.

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Orwell
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07 May 2009, 9:25 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Orwell wrote:

war actually is significantly less frequent and also less destructive than it has been at any point in human history

Here is a TED talk on the subject. Enjoy.

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Oggleleus
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07 May 2009, 10:39 am

Post something funny or insightful or even interesting and you get the "go and learn more about X...and come back and have a discussion" response. Does get old.

I thought the OP was funny. I do not wish to discuss the finer quotations of Karl Mark or any ideologists because that is all they are.

Government sucks and is evil by nature. Choose the lesser evil of the bunch and the better off you are. Socialism sounds good on paper but I'd much rather have capitalism any day compared to the other options out there.

I think many of the Left's Socialists in the U.S. need to be exposed for their capitalistic gains while flipping houses and using insider information to make $$$. They get their small fortune and then decided "no one else should".

Enjoy.

ed
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07 May 2009, 12:19 pm

Oggleleus wrote:

I think many of the Left's Socialists in the U.S. need to be exposed for their capitalistic gains while flipping houses and using insider information to make $$$. They get their small fortune and then decided "no one else should".

I concur, providing there really are such people. Who can you name to prove your point?

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07 May 2009, 1:16 pm

Dussel wrote:

But to point just to the Soviet Union and its satellites is a too cheap argument.

so you're saying that it's better to discuss theories when you have some great evidence of how it worked (in this case, didn't work) in practice?

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ZEGH8578
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07 May 2009, 1:49 pm

i wanna know how democracy works in practice. its s**t

look at kenya.

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anna-banana
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07 May 2009, 3:24 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:

i wanna know how democracy works in practice. its sh**

look at kenya.

well then they must be DOING IT WRONG :wink:

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eipsa2
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07 May 2009, 4:02 pm

anna-banana wrote:

iMark wrote:

^^^ survival but at what cost?

there is no free lunch.

all of you defending socialism should try living in Cuba. it's easy to criticise capitalism when you grew up surrounded by wealth.

Socialism is not about a 'free lunch', you have obviously misunderstood it.

Cuba is actually doing pretty damn well, considering it's been under embargo for 50+ years since its inception of its current model.

Stop parroting propaganda slogans.

Thank you.

oscuria
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07 May 2009, 4:19 pm

eipsa2 wrote:

anna-banana wrote:

iMark wrote:

^^^ survival but at what cost?

there is no free lunch.

all of you defending socialism should try living in Cuba. it's easy to criticise capitalism when you grew up surrounded by wealth.

per your definition of well, i take it you live in a forest.

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DentArthurDent
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07 May 2009, 4:22 pm

Oggleleus wrote:

The OP is showing a trend of posting simplistic populist parables to push a right wing agenda. I for one am sick of this style of debating, it does nothing to encourage people to think for themselves let alone understand the complex nature of the subjects raised.

Haliphron
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07 May 2009, 6:08 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

Oggleleus wrote:

The OP is showing a trend of posting simplistic populist parables to push a right wing agenda. I for one am sick of this style of debating, it does nothing to encourage people to think for themselves let alone understand the complex nature of the subjects raised.

Tis true. There are MUCH better, more sophisticated and accurate ways to describe how and why socialism has been unsuccessful.
I REALLY dont understand how an Aspie could be so thoroughly brainwashed with Populism of all things. *sigh*

ruveyn
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07 May 2009, 6:32 pm

eipsa2 wrote:

Cuba is actually doing pretty damn well, considering it's been under embargo for 50+ years since its inception of its current model.

Cuba is under U.S. embargo. Some other nations trade their goods for Cuban cigars and sugar.

If Cuba could turn out high value added industrial goods it could trade with Europe. A U.S. embargo is not sufficient to cut a nation completely off.

ruveyn

iMark
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07 May 2009, 7:36 pm

i want to live in a country where i receive free medical care, free education, free housing, and free food and clothing - but i want someone else to pay for it while i continue to accumulate wealth.

i must be a democrat.

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07 May 2009, 7:46 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

The OP is showing a trend of posting simplistic populist parables to push a right wing agenda.

Well, what do you expect from a person who spews their hatred of socialism and has a link to a religious website in their signature? Political extremists - whether they are left or right - are poorly educated idiots who know nothing about the world or any political systems because they have been indoctrinated by an ignorant environment.

For those of you who thinks Capitalism or Socialism is "the sh-t!!!111eleven", try living in scandinavia and you will start thinking that the US, Russia and China are pathetic 3'rd world countries.

I for one cannot understand how a person can be nationalistic about a country that has a massive hole in its budget, no free education and a healthcare system that makes the doctors diagnose the wallets of the patients before they get any help.

The only way forward is to intermix the systems and go forward, you cannot strangle corporations to death and expect progress and you cannot treat the working population like crap and expect full productivity.

To put it shortly to you extremists: Evolve or die.

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phil777
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07 May 2009, 8:31 pm

Cuba actually has pretty damn good doctors, education for the kids... Hmm let's see, the only drawback is that you're not allowed to contest the regime, that's about it. And i reckon, Raoul Castro recently said something such as "There is no equal salary, only equal chances." <.< Or somesuch.

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