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Mootoo
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24 Sep 2016, 9:59 pm

adifferentname, I doubt being respectful regardless of gender is somehow bigotry... and what party? Does this site have unions too? This is mere text, and in no way does any of this constitute homogenous enforcement or however... also, I'm not sure where the scene of the verbal lynching was situated, but surely it's at least an improvement over extremists IRL after which death does occur... funny, ultimately, how you request respect for your brand of politics but seem to do the same thing you accuse others of...



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24 Sep 2016, 10:05 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Asking to be addressed as they instead of he/she is not ridiculous, and neither is it "throwing a hissy fit" (the person got visibly upset when they asked nicely to be referred to as "they" and their request was ignored.)


Opinion. Mine is different.

wilburforce wrote:
And no matter what you'd like to label it, it is transphobic to mock trans people for asking people to refer to them with they/them pronouns instead of he/she.


I'm not mocking them for being trans, I'm mocking them for making an unreasonable demand and getting heated when it's not complied with; that's not anti-trans, that's anti-jerk. Before you reply, remember that I get to decide for myself what is and is not reasonable.

wilburforce wrote:
Trans people are already a vulnerable population (being constantly attacked and mocked will do that to people--just do a google search on transgender suicide and depression statistics as well as violence against trans people if you doubt me) and you are contributing to a climate of transphobia here on WP for our transgender members that they already have to navigate through every day of their lives. Bullying and mocking a vulnerable population might make you feel cool and important or whatever, but it reflects very poorly on your character.


Being a vulnerable population doesn't make them immune to criticism, or yes, mockery. I don't need the lecture on how badly trans people have it, the AS group I founded has a very active trans support group, and my wedding featured a "man of honor", as my bride's best friend had transitioned (everyone addressed him as 'he' or 'him', like any other man), that I'm weary of endless arguing over trans issues does not mean I have anything against trans people. Before you even say it, yes, I also have black friends, it's not a clever observation.

I choose to treat trans people exactly like I treat anyone else, which includes addressing them as Mister, Miss, Missus, etc according to which gender they prefer, but does not include imaginary terms like zer or zim, or awkward terminology like referring to someone as 'they' at all times when speaking to them. This is exactly the same level of accommodation I expect as an AS person, or for that matter, as someone with an unusual first name that's similar to several much more common names, e.g. I'll wear earplugs at work rather than force everyone else to accommodate my volume tolerance, and I don't get irate at people mangling my name repeatedly, as I'm the odd man out and it's not reasonable to impose on the world at large just to make things easier for me.

Now, if you've defined "bullying" down to the point where making fun of someone's (subjectively) unreasonable demands counts as bullying, well then I'm not particularly interested in your opinion on my character, as obviously words and concepts mean very different things to you than to the general population. Perhaps I also just have a higher opinion of the resiliency of transgendered people than you do, seeing as how I actually know and interact with so many of them, that I think they'd be okay with me turning a skeptical eye to certain pronoun choices.


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wilburforce
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24 Sep 2016, 10:07 pm

anagram wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Trans people are already a vulnerable population (being constantly attacked and mocked will do that to people--just do a google search on transgender suicide and depression statistics as well as violence against trans people if you doubt me) and you are contributing to a climate of transphobia here on WP for our transgender members that they already have to navigate through every day of their lives.

let's be honest though. why make yourself a target if you believe you're vulnerable. that doesn't make any sense

if someone wants to physically change their sex for whatever reason, that's none of my business. it they want the right to also change it legally, it's still none of my business. but if they want to invent new genders with new rules that don't exist yet, they can't simply expect everybody to conform to it. they didn't want to conform to existing genders. okay. but then why does anyone have the obligation to conform to theirs? they don't have the obligation to follow the general norms, but everybody else has the obligation to follow their individual norms? again, it doesn't make any sense

i think this actually has nothing to do with gender issues. gender is just one of the trendy vehicles nowadays for special-treatment mentality. like i said, if someone wants to change their sex, it's none of my business. if they're annoyed at how i address them as "the wrong gender" for no reason other than habit or convention or plain confusion, that's still none of my business. if they feel persecuted by me and want distance from me for that reason, it's still none of my business. if they politely ask me to change the way how i refer to them, that's a favor i probably i won't mind doing. but if they demand it in any way, i will refuse to do it


All I'm going to say to this is that it's really easy to say this has nothing to do with gender when you have no issues with your own gender and you don't know or care for anyone personally who does have issues with their gender. Ignorance is a comfortable place to judge from, it would seem.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:08 pm

adifferentname wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that WP exists as an "autism safe-space" of sorts. When people start pushing and preferencing other agendas and trying to enforce ideological perspectives and behaviours which are in total opposition to the open and accepting community that Dox is suggesting here, I start to consider alternative outlets. I'm sure the same is true of others.

We aren't all on board with so called "progressive" politics for a whole host of reasons. Anyone who is incapable of respecting this, of engaging in discourse with people whose ideology is not the same as their own without resorting to personal attacks and unqualified assessments of character, who would rather paint themselves as victims and police the language of others rather than exploring ideas on their merits, needs to take a good, long look at themselves.

Of course, if your dream is of a WP that is cleansed of those who don't fall into your in-group, which has a homogeneous ideological perspective and in which dissenters are verbally lynched for their non-conformity to the "party" line, feel free to engage in all the bigotry and intolerance you like.

As the old adage goes:

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.


The real fun part is that the video I posted shows the social justice brigade crashing a college Republicans type group meeting, so if anyone's safe space is being violated, it's the conservatives who's club it is.


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wilburforce
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24 Sep 2016, 10:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Asking to be addressed as they instead of he/she is not ridiculous, and neither is it "throwing a hissy fit" (the person got visibly upset when they asked nicely to be referred to as "they" and their request was ignored.)


Opinion. Mine is different.

wilburforce wrote:
And no matter what you'd like to label it, it is transphobic to mock trans people for asking people to refer to them with they/them pronouns instead of he/she.


I'm not mocking them for being trans, I'm mocking them for making an unreasonable demand and getting heated when it's not complied with; that's not anti-trans, that's anti-jerk. Before you reply, remember that I get to decide for myself what is and is not reasonable.

wilburforce wrote:
Trans people are already a vulnerable population (being constantly attacked and mocked will do that to people--just do a google search on transgender suicide and depression statistics as well as violence against trans people if you doubt me) and you are contributing to a climate of transphobia here on WP for our transgender members that they already have to navigate through every day of their lives. Bullying and mocking a vulnerable population might make you feel cool and important or whatever, but it reflects very poorly on your character.


Being a vulnerable population doesn't make them immune to criticism, or yes, mockery. I don't need the lecture on how badly trans people have it, the AS group I founded has a very active trans support group, and my wedding featured a "man of honor", as my bride's best friend had transitioned (everyone addressed him as 'he' or 'him', like any other man), that I'm weary of endless arguing over trans issues does not mean I have anything against trans people. Before you even say it, yes, I also have black friends, it's not a clever observation.

I choose to treat trans people exactly like I treat anyone else, which includes addressing them as Mister, Miss, Missus, etc according to which gender they prefer, but does not include imaginary terms like zer or zim, or awkward terminology like referring to someone as 'they' at all times when speaking to them. This is exactly the same level of accommodation I expect as an AS person, or for that matter, as someone with an unusual first name that's similar to several much more common names, e.g. I'll wear earplugs at work rather than force everyone else to accommodate my volume tolerance, and I don't get irate at people mangling my name repeatedly, as I'm the odd man out and it's not reasonable to impose on the world at large just to make things easier for me.

Now, if you've defined "bullying" down to the point where making fun of someone's (subjectively) unreasonable demands counts as bullying, well then I'm not particularly interested in your opinion on my character, as obviously words and concepts mean very different things to you than to the general population. Perhaps I also just have a higher opinion of the resiliency of transgendered people than you do, seeing as how I actually know and interact with so many of them, that I think they'd be okay with me turning a skeptical eye to certain pronoun choices.


I would suggest you share that video with your many trans friends, with the same mocking comment you attached to it here, and see how they feel about it. Let them judge for themselves.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:10 pm

wilburforce wrote:
All I'm going to say to this is that it's really easy to say this has nothing to do with gender when you have no issues with your own gender and you don't know or care for anyone personally who does have issues with their gender. Ignorance is a comfortable place to judge from, it would seem.


Do you know anagram's personal situation regarding gender, or are you judging from ignorance?


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wilburforce
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24 Sep 2016, 10:11 pm

Dox47 wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that WP exists as an "autism safe-space" of sorts. When people start pushing and preferencing other agendas and trying to enforce ideological perspectives and behaviours which are in total opposition to the open and accepting community that Dox is suggesting here, I start to consider alternative outlets. I'm sure the same is true of others.

We aren't all on board with so called "progressive" politics for a whole host of reasons. Anyone who is incapable of respecting this, of engaging in discourse with people whose ideology is not the same as their own without resorting to personal attacks and unqualified assessments of character, who would rather paint themselves as victims and police the language of others rather than exploring ideas on their merits, needs to take a good, long look at themselves.

Of course, if your dream is of a WP that is cleansed of those who don't fall into your in-group, which has a homogeneous ideological perspective and in which dissenters are verbally lynched for their non-conformity to the "party" line, feel free to engage in all the bigotry and intolerance you like.

As the old adage goes:

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.


The real fun part is that the video I posted shows the social justice brigade crashing a college Republicans type group meeting, so if anyone's safe space is being violated, it's the conservatives who's club it is.


The chair of that meeting admits himself that he invited everyone to join their discussions, so no one was "crashing" anything. Did you even watch the whole video?


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(Note to Moderators: my warning number is wrong on my profile but apparently can't be fixed so I will note here that it is actually 2, not 3--the warning issued to me on Aug 20 2016 was a mistake but I've been told it can't be removed.)


Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:12 pm

wilburforce wrote:
I would suggest you share that video with your many trans friends, with the same mocking comment you attached to it here, and see how they feel about it. Let them judge for themselves.


They know my opinions, they agree that some people go overboard, and that it damages their cause. Say, overbearing "allies" on social media...


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wilburforce
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24 Sep 2016, 10:13 pm

Dox47 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
All I'm going to say to this is that it's really easy to say this has nothing to do with gender when you have no issues with your own gender and you don't know or care for anyone personally who does have issues with their gender. Ignorance is a comfortable place to judge from, it would seem.


Do you know anagram's personal situation regarding gender, or are you judging from ignorance?


We have spoken privately, actually, and I have read many of his public posts where he talks about himself and his past relationships and opinions about things. Nice attempt at a "gotcha!", though.


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(Note to Moderators: my warning number is wrong on my profile but apparently can't be fixed so I will note here that it is actually 2, not 3--the warning issued to me on Aug 20 2016 was a mistake but I've been told it can't be removed.)


Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:14 pm

wilburforce wrote:
The chair of that meeting admits himself that he invited everyone to join their discussions, so no one was "crashing" anything. Did you even watch the whole video?


Sorry, I don't always police my language for 100% technical accuracy when speaking informally, mea culpa. My point is that they were in someone else's space creating hostility, something that social justice people often complain about.


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24 Sep 2016, 10:15 pm

Dox47 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
I would suggest you share that video with your many trans friends, with the same mocking comment you attached to it here, and see how they feel about it. Let them judge for themselves.


They know my opinions, they agree that some people go overboard, and that it damages their cause. Say, overbearing "allies" on social media...


I didn't ask you to share your opinions with them, I asked (and now I am daring you) to share that video and your comment on it about how you can't parody these people because they do it themselves.


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(Note to Moderators: my warning number is wrong on my profile but apparently can't be fixed so I will note here that it is actually 2, not 3--the warning issued to me on Aug 20 2016 was a mistake but I've been told it can't be removed.)


adifferentname
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24 Sep 2016, 10:15 pm

Mootoo wrote:
adifferentname, I doubt being respectful regardless of gender is somehow bigotry... and what party? Does this site have unions too? This is mere text, and in no way does any of this constitute homogenous enforcement or however... also, I'm not sure where the scene of the verbal lynching was situated, but surely it's at least an improvement over extremists IRL after which death does occur... funny, ultimately, how you request respect for your brand of politics but seem to do the same thing you accuse others of...


Try reading what I actually wrote next time. It makes a world of difference.



Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:16 pm

wilburforce wrote:
We have spoken privately, actually, and I have read many of his public posts where he talks about himself and his past relationships and opinions about things. Nice attempt at a "gotcha!", though.


So, you know for a fact that no one he cares about has any gender identity issues? He must talk about himself much more than I realized, in order to cover everyone he knows and all.


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Mootoo
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24 Sep 2016, 10:17 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Try reading what I actually wrote next time. It makes a world of difference.


I swear I didn't use telepathy to formulate a response.



Last edited by Mootoo on 24 Sep 2016, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wilburforce
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24 Sep 2016, 10:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
We have spoken privately, actually, and I have read many of his public posts where he talks about himself and his past relationships and opinions about things. Nice attempt at a "gotcha!", though.


So, you know for a fact that no one he cares about has any gender identity issues? He must talk about himself much more than I realized, in order to cover everyone he knows and all.


The extent of my private conversations with him are none of your business.


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(Note to Moderators: my warning number is wrong on my profile but apparently can't be fixed so I will note here that it is actually 2, not 3--the warning issued to me on Aug 20 2016 was a mistake but I've been told it can't be removed.)


Dox47
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24 Sep 2016, 10:19 pm

wilburforce wrote:
I didn't ask you to share your opinions with them, I asked (and now I am daring you) to share that video and your comment on it about how you can't parody these people because they do it themselves.


I actually posted a much snarkier caption on Facebook. No, I'm not linking, I'm not doxxing myself (get it?) on WP to win some sort of bravery debate.


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