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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 6:33 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
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American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.



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21 Oct 2021, 6:44 pm

Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 6:49 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


The price of strawberries would be much too high otherwise. People want them. You can yack all you want but that's how it is and it's not changing. If we repealed the minimum wage laws the price of everything would drop resulting in a higher standard of living for the pickers.



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21 Oct 2021, 6:53 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


The price of strawberries would be much too high otherwise. People want them. You can yack all you want but that's how it is and it's not changing. If we repealed the minimum wage laws the price of everything would drop resulting in a higher standard of living for the pickers.


If people want them they'll pay enough to ensure demand continues to exist. :nerdy:
Beyond that you're just repeating typical mantras from the cult of the invisible hand that don't actually pan out in reality.


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 6:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


The price of strawberries would be much too high otherwise. People want them. You can yack all you want but that's how it is and it's not changing. If we repealed the minimum wage laws the price of everything would drop resulting in a higher standard of living for the pickers.


If people want them they'll pay enough to ensure demand continues to exist. :nerdy:
Beyond that you're just repeating typical mantras from the cult of the invisible hand that don't actually pan out in reality.


Newsflash guy Mexican illegals picking crops in California aren't getting minimum wage anyway.



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21 Oct 2021, 7:07 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


The price of strawberries would be much too high otherwise. People want them. You can yack all you want but that's how it is and it's not changing. If we repealed the minimum wage laws the price of everything would drop resulting in a higher standard of living for the pickers.


If people want them they'll pay enough to ensure demand continues to exist. :nerdy:
Beyond that you're just repeating typical mantras from the cult of the invisible hand that don't actually pan out in reality.


Newsflash guy Mexican illegals picking crops in California aren't getting minimum wage anyway.


Which you don't have a problem with and I do. :scratch:

Neo-liberals might turn a blind eye to those issues but that's got nothing to do with people who support raising minimum wage. The slightly more reformist neo-liberals try to jump on that cause to prove they're not part of the problem but they're just a milder version of your ideology, not mine.


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Misslizard
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21 Oct 2021, 7:24 pm

It’s not just the pay but the working conditions.
My ex picked cotton when he was a kid in the Arkansas delta.He said crop dusters would fly over spraying defoliant while they were in the fields,later he broke out in boils all over.
Then this.No one should ever die this way on the job.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.knkx.o ... f_amp=true
I just did some farm labor picking up Black Walnuts.I will get 20$ a hundred pound after hulling.Compare that to what Hammons gets for shelled black walnuts.8 ounces for $12 at Walmart.
The only occupational hazard I deal with is getting hit on the head by a falling nut.
I also have to transport the nuts 20 miles to the hulling station.


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 7:45 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
American agriculture has always been dependant on slave labor in one form or another. Why do you think the border wall will never be built? Nobody can afford to pay anyone minimum wage to pick strawberries.


Muh business model isn't a defence for the indefensible. If you can't afford to pay people a fair wage for picking strawberries you can't afford to make a business out of growing and selling strawberries, externalizing the costs of your business on to the people generating the value of said business isn't a viable business model, you're not entitled to their time to make your dreams a reality.


The price of strawberries would be much too high otherwise. People want them. You can yack all you want but that's how it is and it's not changing. If we repealed the minimum wage laws the price of everything would drop resulting in a higher standard of living for the pickers.


If people want them they'll pay enough to ensure demand continues to exist. :nerdy:
Beyond that you're just repeating typical mantras from the cult of the invisible hand that don't actually pan out in reality.


Newsflash guy Mexican illegals picking crops in California aren't getting minimum wage anyway.


Which you don't have a problem with and I do. :scratch:

Neo-liberals might turn a blind eye to those issues but that's got nothing to do with people who support raising minimum wage. The slightly more reformist neo-liberals try to jump on that cause to prove they're not part of the problem but they're just a milder version of your ideology, not mine.


I'm mostly a conservative. I voted Biden of course because Trump is just bat s**t crazy.



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21 Oct 2021, 8:01 pm

Axeman wrote:

I'm mostly a conservative. I voted Biden of course because Trump is just bat s**t crazy.


Neo-liberalism is the main ideology of both main parties in the US, it's the main ideology in the UK, Canada and Australia as well. That's not to suggest that there aren't real differences between any of those parties or that there's no point at all in voting for one over another, only that they operate within a limited bubble of ideology.

Trump and Bannon represent about as far into even paying lip service to questioning neo-liberalism that the Republicans have gotten; Sanders and the Squad are about as far as Dems will go. Either way it's still talk of reform, nothing radical.

To be fair though I was also bearing in mind your mention of Ayn Rand earlier since she's a big influence on the most aggressive of neo-liberals/libertarian/ancap types (no, they're not all the same, they're increasingly extreme points on the same spectrum). I'm aware that she was critical of libertarianism but how she felt about them is separate from how they feel about her.

I'm in favour of punishing employers who underpay workers and since hiring illegally almost always involves exploitation I'm in favour of going after that too, so it's not up to me to defend a system that fails in that regard. That's a battle between flavours of neo-liberal capitalism.


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 8:07 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:

I'm mostly a conservative. I voted Biden of course because Trump is just bat s**t crazy.


Neo-liberalism is the main ideology of both main parties in the US, it's the main ideology in the UK, Canada and Australia as well. That's not to suggest that there aren't real differences between any of those parties or that there's no point at all in voting for one over another, only that they operate within a limited bubble of ideology.

Trump and Bannon represent about as far into even paying lip service to questioning neo-liberalism that the Republicans have gotten; Sanders and the Squad are about as far as Dems will go. Either way it's still talk of reform, nothing radical.

To be fair though I was also bearing in mind your mention of Ayn Rand earlier since she's a big influence on the most aggressive of neo-liberals/libertarian/ancap types (no, they're not all the same, they're increasingly extreme points on the same spectrum). I'm aware that she was critical of libertarianism but how she felt about them is separate from how they feel about her.

I'm in favour of punishing employers who underpay workers and since hiring illegally almost always involves exploitation I'm in favour of going after that too, so it's not up to me to defend a system that fails in that regard. That's a battle between flavours of neo-liberal capitalism.


Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.



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21 Oct 2021, 8:09 pm

Axeman wrote:
Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.


I'm sure you're well-equipped to speak for those workers from all of your own experience as a day labourer?


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21 Oct 2021, 9:46 pm

Then I wonder why UFW sends me emails with petitions to sign?
https://ufw.org/


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 10:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.


I'm sure you're well-equipped to speak for those workers from all of your own experience as a day labourer?


Who do you think higher food prices will hurt most? Given that one much thought? Like Al Gore the braindead jackwagon who wants to tax cow farts. Like higher prices for meat and dairy will help struggling families.



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21 Oct 2021, 10:35 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.


I'm sure you're well-equipped to speak for those workers from all of your own experience as a day labourer?


Who do you think higher food prices will hurt most?


Can you point to an example of things working the way you believe they will or do you just have this talking point?

Why is it that farm workers don't advocate for lower wages for themselves if this would somehow benefit everyone? I'm pretty sure their organization is better equipped to speak for an approximate consensus of how they feel than you are.


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Axeman
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21 Oct 2021, 10:43 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.


I'm sure you're well-equipped to speak for those workers from all of your own experience as a day labourer?


Who do you think higher food prices will hurt most?


Can you point to an example of things working the way you believe they will or do you just have this talking point?

Why is it that farm workers don't advocate for lower wages for themselves if this would somehow benefit everyone? I'm pretty sure their organization is better equipped to speak for an approximate consensus of how they feel than you are.


I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about poor families in the US generally. Their standard of living would nose dive due to higher food prices. That's who higher food prices would hurt. Not me, I make a good living. No, your proletariat masses you claim to advocate for.



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21 Oct 2021, 10:46 pm

Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Axeman wrote:
Most farm labor happens on privately owned land so it's different from say people working in a store. Also migrant workers by and large don't want the help of people like you. They have a system that works for them and you would bring in complications that most don't want.


I'm sure you're well-equipped to speak for those workers from all of your own experience as a day labourer?


Who do you think higher food prices will hurt most?


Can you point to an example of things working the way you believe they will or do you just have this talking point?

Why is it that farm workers don't advocate for lower wages for themselves if this would somehow benefit everyone? I'm pretty sure their organization is better equipped to speak for an approximate consensus of how they feel than you are.


I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about poor families in the US generally. Their standard of living would nose dive due to higher food prices. That's who higher food prices would hurt. Not me, I make a good living. No, your proletariat masses you claim to advocate for.


You seem to think I'm suggesting only that one sector should see an increase in wages or you're just peddling the myth that increasing minimum wage harms an economy.


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