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06 Jul 2012, 6:29 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Well Joker, exporting jobs is just one of the many features of something that we call
Capitalism. And since you want big government off our backs, stop telling other people(including corporate executives) how to do business! :wink:



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06 Jul 2012, 6:29 pm

Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Quote:
There are men talking here, why don't you run along and play with your toys


Uh oh, it's ME that hit the nerve!

:lol:


Ah, I see. You want to derail this thread with your lame personal problem with me. Well, if you have a problem with me, feel free to send me a message so we don't have to operate under any pretenses or disturb this discussion you are intruding on. Otherwise it is apparent you are just a little b*tch drama queen who wants attention. I'm not kidding, Raptor, if you want to discuss something with me, send me a message


I do hate it when threads get derailed no matter who is doing it.


Okay, Joker, for YOU I won't "de-rail" it........
:D



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06 Jul 2012, 6:31 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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06 Jul 2012, 6:32 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Well Joker, exporting jobs is just one of the many features of something that we call
Capitalism. And since you want big government off our backs, stop telling other people(including corporate executives) how to do business! :wink:


You can have Capitalism with out sending jobs over seas. Plus China does practice Capitalism but do you see them sending jobs to our country? the answer no you do not. I would like to see American Made things by Americans, Not China Not India but by Americans. It should be the interests of our country first.

And a goverment big enough to give you everything is a goverment big enough to take it all away.



06 Jul 2012, 6:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer




Businesses exist to make money. What incentive do they have to be socially responsible and give back to their communities if doing such doesn't increase their profits? (Or not doing so causes them to lose money).



06 Jul 2012, 6:36 pm

Joker wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Well Joker, exporting jobs is just one of the many features of something that we call
Capitalism. And since you want big government off our backs, stop telling other people(including corporate executives) how to do business! :wink:


You can have Capitalism with out sending jobs over seas. Plus China does practice Capitalism but do you see them sending jobs to our country? the answer no you do not. I would like to see American Made things by Americans, Not China Not India but by Americans. It should be the interests of our country first.



Do you Really expect private companies to put the nations interests first on their own accord? China does not allow outsourcing of jobs by chinese companies because the GOVERNMENT PREVENTS IT.

I hope you finally see why government is important and that unrestricted capitalism will ruin a country.



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06 Jul 2012, 6:37 pm

It's the dirt cheap labor and operating costs that gave China it's edge. It's too hard for domestic production to compete when the only break US manufacturers get is that they don't have to ship things as far....



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06 Jul 2012, 6:38 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer




Businesses exist to make money. What incentive do they have to be socially responsible and give back to their communities if doing such doesn't increase their profits? (Or not doing so causes them to lose money).


In the long term, I think it would create money for business and investors, as the financial growth of the community would create a consumer base. But as I stated, it's a long term plan, not some get-rich-quick scheme capitalists seem to be enamored with.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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06 Jul 2012, 6:41 pm

Raptor wrote:
It's the dirt cheap labor and operating costs that gave China it's edge. It's too hard for domestic production to compete when the only break US manufacturers get is that they don't have to ship things as far....


The state's direct sponsorship of Chinese industries certainly helps as well. For instance, in the modern business world, hacking and other industrial theft through networks is extremely common, and much of it comes from China. US or other nation's businesses do their best to defend their network infrastructure and secrets stored in databases, but it is hard to do when you are a business taking on a nation- which is what taking on Chinese companies really means. It is some kind of "state capitalism", not really about free markets. It also encourages cronyism and corruption. China and other nations that are making their mark with state capitalism will end up suffering in the long run


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06 Jul 2012, 6:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There is another issue: US manufacturers tended not not to upgrade/modernize/streamline their production efforts while the Japanese did. China got in the act with cheap labor and overhead.
You absolutely have to have efficient processes to compete with Asia.
The manufacturing arm of my employer has spent mega-bucks streamlining design and processes to compete internationally.



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06 Jul 2012, 6:50 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There is another issue: US manufacturers tended not not to upgrade/modernize/streamline their production efforts while the Japanese did. China got in the act with cheap labor and overhead.
You absolutely have to have efficient processes to compete with Asia.
The manufacturing arm of my employer has spent mega-bucks streamlining design and processes to compete internationally.


Then kudos to your employer. 8)
Believe it or not, I am in agreement with you.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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06 Jul 2012, 7:16 pm

Vigilans wrote:
My politics are based on years of careful research and observation. If I based them solely upon my environment, I would probably be rabidly anti-Quebecois. You are not the only person to be mistreated by bigots. Some people, however, are capable of rising above these things. Maybe your environment entirely shapes your views and you find it easy to project this mindset onto others, but not everyone develops their views the same way.


It's hard to rise above these things. If I pay taxes, I know a set percentage of those taxes is going to their welfare. Even if they wish cancer upon me and my family, as they've done several times, I pay when they get cancer. While they call white women fair game, I have pay for their medication when they get themselves infected with a venereal disease. As they throw stones at my house and pull plants from my garden, I pay for their housing. It's hard to rise above it if you're not only forced to allow these people into your country, and have to stand by as they commit acts of violence and vandalism, but are also forced to pay to keep them healthy, fed and housed.

I'm glad several popular political parties are now trying to get requirements for welfare - you need to speak Dutch, you can't have a criminal record and you need to have lived here for some time. That would literally exclude more than half of Moroccan men in a few years from receiving welfare, as well as a sizeable percentage of Moroccan women.

Vigilans wrote:
Actually, it is. It is objectively wrong. He mercilessly killed young campers. He set off a bomb in Oslo that killed eight people. It was a massacre.


That's your moral view. It's also mine, but that's beside the point. From Breivik's moral point of view, what he did is not immoral or wrong. He is not wrong in thinking that, because there are no objective criteria that make something morally right or wrong. Morality can't be measured, is embedded either in a person or in a society, and there is no such thing as universal morality. A cynic might think that this could have been a good thing, because they'll cause much less pollution now that they're dead. Some politicians undoubtedly took this opportunity to stress their points of view.

Vigilans wrote:
Morals shape what one will agree or disagree with. So you can make a valid measurement of one's morals by what they agree or disagree with.


You can see what their morals are, and how their morals correspond to yours, or to his, or to Krishna's for all I care, but you can't call them right or wrong, because there's no way to determine that.

Vigilans wrote:
You are placing a lot of emphasis on these social and cultural values while leaving out education.


Education is part of the way you're raised. I had religious education in primary school, and social studies throughout secondary school.

Vigilans wrote:
... and thus sympathize with what drove a narcissist to commit one of the most atrocious acts of mass murder in recorded history?


Understand why. If Breivik is mentally unstable, or demented, or as narcissistic as they say he is, I understand why these events would drive a man that crazy to do such a thing.

Vigilans wrote:
Didn't you hear? 39% makes a majority in Canada ;) I digress. Roughly 60-70% of Americans participated in either direction of the US revolution. The majority (over 2/3) of these participants were in favor of independence. The remaining 30-40% did not side with either. You know what that sounds like? It sounds exactly like modern US politics. On average only ~60% of Americans bother voting. 30-40% do not vote, does that therefore make them all Democrat?


It makes them nothing, which suits my claim perfectly - it was a minority that was actively involved in the rebellion. A minority aided by foreign countries.

Vigilans wrote:
They then engaged in conventional and some guerrilla warfare against their oppressors' military forces and sought audience with foreign nations for recognition of their fledgling nation.

Where do they go to a campsite for young people and massacre them calmly and methodically for an hour?


Right here. Not just young people, but Christian native Americans who had been thrown around a few times.

Wikipedia wrote:
In early March 1782, the Lenape were surprised by a raiding party of 160 Pennsylvania militia led by Lieutenant Colonel David Williamson. The militia rounded up the Christian Lenape and accused them of taking part in raids into Pennsylvania. Although the Lenape denied the charges, the militia held a council and voted to kill them.

After the Lenape were told of the vote, they spent the night praying and singing hymns.

The next morning on 8 March, the militia tied the Indians, stunned them with mallet blows to the head, and killed them with fatal scalping cuts. In all, the militia murdered and scalped 28 men, 29 women, and 39 children. They piled the bodies in the mission buildings and burned the village down. They also burned the other abandoned Moravian villages. Two Indian boys, one of whom had been scalped, survived to tell of the massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnadenh%C3 ... d_massacre


That's where.



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06 Jul 2012, 7:30 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Only in part. Businesses had deserted the inner cities out of lack of social responsibility, and - yes, I'll say it - racial prejudice against the mostly people of color living there.
As far as those jobs being shipped over seas is concerned, that, too, is a matter of business putting their greed above the social contract they should be taking part in with the American people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There is another issue: US manufacturers tended not not to upgrade/modernize/streamline their production efforts while the Japanese did. China got in the act with cheap labor and overhead.
You absolutely have to have efficient processes to compete with Asia.
The manufacturing arm of my employer has spent mega-bucks streamlining design and processes to compete internationally.


Then kudos to your employer. 8)
Believe it or not, I am in agreement with you.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


F*ck, I bet that was painful :o
One of the impediments to this kind of progress is culture. Management in some companies (to put it conservatively) has a tendency toward autocracy which doesn't lend itself well to progress toward global competition. Management also has the bean counters and investors screaming for more profits during these slow transitions from old to new. Non-management has job security fears of being streamlined out of a job. There is a painful teething period to go through that a company without it's collective head int the game might not survive.



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06 Jul 2012, 7:49 pm

bizboy1 wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
JWC wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Joker wrote:
Oodain wrote:
joker, you arent self reliant.

we are all dependant on the knowledge and work of others, especially in this day and age.


Yes I am I do not depend on govermeant aid, That is what I mean being self-reliant from the govermeant.



:lmao:

If you drive, use electricity, have your trash collected, have running water that isn't being pumped directly from an artesian well, then you are relying on the government. You pay taxes and your tax dollars are used to support the infrastructure that ALL of us ultimately depend on. If you TRULY want to be self-reliant, follow the example of Chris McCandless from Into the wild and try to "live off the land". You're so dense sometimes, brah.


Libertarians in general seem to be either completely delusional, or kinda stupid in some regard. Their beliefs are just *that* far removed form the reality of this world.


Isn't it more like the gov't relies upon the tax payer to fund those services, than the tax payer relying on the gov't to provide them? After all, the tax payer could (in theory) choose to purchase those services elsewhere, but the gov't only has one source of tax revenue: the citizens.


While a decent enough point, I feel it misses the thrust of the argument: the government provides these services as an ostensibly objective manifestation of the social contract we all live under. Government facilitates, with the main thrust of the argument being that there is no survival in modern society without such facilitation unless you choose to live in the wild as a hermit.



Genau! :wink:


I find it laughable that anyone who is beyond gradeschool age and has a HS diploma at the very least wouldn't realize this. It's just THAT obvious.


Yet you guys are convenient examples on why our public schools are sh**.

[img]edit:%20removed%20by%20moderator%20for%20unfiltered%20swearing[/img]


Do you even know what a social contract is? Or did you sleep your way through psychology?


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06 Jul 2012, 7:51 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Joker wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But it's the denial of a social contract that has allowed most businesses to flee the inner cities, leaving only a few in their wake that employ far too few people in the neighborhood - when they don't hire from outside the community. Thus, leaving the people of the inner city to a life of poverty, crime, and dependence on government.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


We would not have to deal with any of that if we would stop sending jobs over seas.


Well Joker, exporting jobs is just one of the many features of something that we call
Capitalism. And since you want big government off our backs, stop telling other people(including corporate executives) how to do business! :wink:


You can have Capitalism with out sending jobs over seas. Plus China does practice Capitalism but do you see them sending jobs to our country? the answer no you do not. I would like to see American Made things by Americans, Not China Not India but by Americans. It should be the interests of our country first.



Do you Really expect private companies to put the nations interests first on their own accord? China does not allow outsourcing of jobs by chinese companies because the GOVERNMENT PREVENTS IT.

I hope you finally see why government is important and that unrestricted capitalism will ruin a country.


We should do that too.



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06 Jul 2012, 7:54 pm

noname_ever wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
noname_ever wrote:
Che was likely racist as well. http://lefroy.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/ ... xist-hero/

This is an example of selective out rage.


Who is outraged, or backing Che in this discussion?


Well, selective lack of outrage.


Again. When witnessing a fight between a chihuahua and a pit bull, conservatives want liberals to express equal (or greater) outrage at the chihuahua for fighting dirty when attacked.