What do you think about abortion

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hanyo
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13 Jul 2013, 10:13 am

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

I'm not judging just curious. It is a very tricky question.

They aren't the one having to carry it in their body and suffer through a pregnancy.

I didn't really think about that in my case since both times I was pregnant the father took off and didn't want anything to do with the baby or me.

albedo
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13 Jul 2013, 10:14 am

Pro-choice isn't the same as being "pro-abortion" which is often how it is described.

It is a tough question. I think it is necessary sometimes, with limitation on terms.

albedo
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13 Jul 2013, 10:18 am

hanyo wrote:

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

I'm not judging just curious. It is a very tricky question.

Sure that is a biological limitation, part of me agrees with you, on the other hand they have joint responsibility, so it is rational if they want to take responsibility, and think they can provide, their views should be heard.

On the other hand, father purely opposing out of spite, that is an issue too. But that works both ways unfortunately.

Vexcalibur
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13 Jul 2013, 6:52 pm

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

I do.

Pretty much because during pregnancy you can't give 50% of the decision power to a single person. The fetus is either going to be born or not. So you have to give 100% decision power to one person. It makes sense for it to be the pregnant woman, as it is her body.

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zer0netgain
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13 Jul 2013, 6:53 pm

hanyo wrote:

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

I'm not judging just curious. It is a very tricky question.

They aren't the one having to carry it in their body and suffer through a pregnancy.

No, but they are the one legally obligated to financially support the child (and perhaps the mother) for the next 18 years even if they didn't want the child.

Double standard. The woman's obligation is OVER at 9 months. She can always give it up for adoption and walk away.

The father gets no options if he doesn't want the child.

Vexcalibur
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13 Jul 2013, 7:05 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

Double standard. The woman's obligation is OVER at 9 months.

Double standard, somehow when the man has sex you don't bring the whole responsibility or "he made a decision" charade you bring in the case of the woman.

You are either being dishonest or very ignorant to claim that the woman's obligation is "OVER at 9 months".

Thing is, for the man a possible baby is a "financial obligation". For the woman, the incoming baby is a risk of death. A 50% chance of losing her job. And a 100% chance of vomit. Tons of vomit.

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Vexcalibur
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13 Jul 2013, 7:10 pm

I am pro-abortion in case of unwanted pregnancy and pro-leg surgery in case of broken leg.

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LKL
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14 Jul 2013, 3:04 am

zer0netgain wrote:

hanyo wrote:

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

I'm not judging just curious. It is a very tricky question.

They aren't the one having to carry it in their body and suffer through a pregnancy.

Unless he decides to just skip town and move to the other side of the country. Or say, 'the mother was a whore, the kid isn't mine.'

Not as easy to do these days, with credit card tracking, genetic testing and so on, but for most of human history the man couldn't be made to support the kid whether he wanted the woman to carry it to term or not.

albedo
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14 Jul 2013, 3:49 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

That's a point but by the same logic if he is not baring child, then he has no responsibility to plan, and help provide whats need for the arrival, until after the birth, when clearly he does.

I do agree though you can't have a majority from two unless they vote the same, that is the best argument so far, and I would be against the decision being made by an external judge.

In some situation where it come down to two votes, it all or nothing, otherwise do X. However how appropriate this is in this scenario I'm not so sure.

zer0netgain
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14 Jul 2013, 7:06 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

Double standard, somehow when the man has sex you don't bring the whole responsibility or "he made a decision" charade you bring in the case of the woman.

No. I am simply putting out the fact that a woman gets all the options, and her "obligation" ends at 9 months.

A man gets NO options AT ALL, and his obligations run for 18 years.

This goes to your claim that a woman should have a "right to choose" when the father gets no rights whatsoever. If a man is expected to bear responsibility for his choices, why is not that same reasoning valid for the mother?

Have you ever researched the draconian child support laws of some states...or the blatant injustice many family court judges impose...threatening and imposing IMPRISONMENT for not meeting the court-mandated payments (even if set impossibly high)? The father's life can be utterly ruined even when he tries to do the right thing.

But he gets no say whatsoever about if a fetus is brought into the world.

The woman, by contrast, can abandon the kid at an orphanage the day it's born...nothing is done to her for that, and she has the right to terminate the pregnancy on her decision alone.

That is a double-standard.

hanyo
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14 Jul 2013, 10:58 am

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/the-strip.html#4

Vexcalibur
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14 Jul 2013, 11:06 am

albedo wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

albedo wrote:

So do you think that father's right kicks in after birth?

That's a point but by the same logic if he is not baring child, then he has no responsibility to plan, and help provide whats need for the arrival, until after the birth, when clearly he does.

There should be a way for the father to renounce responsibility *and* rights [1] towards a child before birth or in case the father can prove he was never notified before birth.

But it is a separate topic. Meanwhile, abortion is a right for the child bearer.

[1] Everybody goes on and on about the poor father and his responsibilities, but there are also rights. E.g: Custody.

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Vexcalibur
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14 Jul 2013, 11:13 am

zer0netgain wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

Double standard, somehow when the man has sex you don't bring the whole responsibility or "he made a decision" charade you bring in the case of the woman.

No. I am simply putting out the fact that a woman gets all the options, and her "obligation" ends at 9 months.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:

A man gets NO options AT ALL, and his obligations run for 18 years.

He should have worn a condom, since apparently they are perfect and never fail. Or he could have used a vasectomy. OR he could just avoid putting his penis inside vaginas.

Quote:

This goes to your claim that a woman should have a "right to choose"

The woman HAS the right to choose.

Quote:

when the father gets no rights whatsoever.

The poor guy.

In case of pregnancy, the father is "an interested party" and the mother is a "committed party" . The baby is an eggs and bacon breakfast. The father is the chicken that provides eggs, whilst the Mother is the pork.

Quote:

If a man is expected to bear responsibility for his choices, why is not that same reasoning valid for the mother?

If the mother chooses badly (aka decides not to have an abortion) then she will also pay for the responsibility of child bearing.

Oh sure, she gets 100% decision power. This "double-standard" was, unfortunately provided by nature. The mother is the one whose body is bound by pregnancy.

YOU CANNOT, UNDER ANY ARGUMENT PROVIDE MAN WITH 1%, 0.1% or 0.01% decision power about abortion WITHOUT invading the woman's body rights.

That's the problem. That's the reason why the woman should get 100% decision power regarding abortion. It would be immoral to do otherwise.

So, instead of asking to invade the woman's body autonomy. Ask for a law to be made that allows the father to renounce of responsibility before abortion. Until then, if you are a guy worried about falling for this, just don't make women pregnant.

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zer0netgain
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14 Jul 2013, 4:23 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

In case of pregnancy, the father is "an interested party" and the mother is a "committed party" . The baby is an eggs and bacon breakfast. The father is the chicken that provides eggs, whilst the Mother is the pork.

Odd. I'd think 18 YEARS trumps 9 MONTHS. Especially in a modern nation where pregnancy is incredibly safe...even if unpleasant.

Ever been a SLAVE to a job you hate because you don't' want to go to jail? That's how many men with child support obligations feel. Is that really any different?

LKL
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16 Jul 2013, 12:39 am

I don't think you get thrown in jail for not having a job, even if you owe child support.

zer0netgain
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16 Jul 2013, 7:14 am

LKL wrote:

I don't think you get thrown in jail for not having a job, even if you owe child support.

Check out the rules in some states. It happens...or is certainly threatened.

The enforcement mechanisms for getting child support payments can be absolutely draconian and anti-male.

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