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President Donald Trump!

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Jacoby
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07 Sep 2015, 9:11 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
He doesn't have the authority to "push it in a fit of pique because he didn't get his way." "Sir the Russians have launched their nukes" is a completely different scenario.


Theoretically, since it's never happened, he actually does. Morally you could say it's not right, you can say it's not smart or reasonable, but at the end of the day he's the Commander in Chief, he has absolute say over military operations-- he just can't declare war, that's congress' job. That being said, the US doesn't declare war anymore, we just go bomb s**t and merely call it "an operation".

TBH, I don't even think there's a fail safe past the President, perhaps there's an aspie here with a hard-on (ahem, special interest) for constitutional law that could answer that one.


I would say no, the president cannot launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike as that would be an act of war which congress would need to declare. If the president were to go off his rocker I think there are forces in and outside our government that would ensure that nuclear armageddon and would disregard the orders of the president.



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07 Sep 2015, 9:29 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
...at the end of the day he's the Commander in Chief, he has absolute say over military operations...

Nonsense. Any CO can refuse unconstitutional orders. The president doesn't even have a button.



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07 Sep 2015, 9:38 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority

Quote:
Only the President can direct the use of nuclear weapons, including the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). While the President does have unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to order that nuclear weapons be used for any reason at any time, the actual procedures and technical systems in place for authorizing the execution of a launch order requires a secondary confirmation under a two-man rule, as the President's order is subject to secondary confirmation by the Secretary of Defense. If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, then the President may in his sole discretion fire the Secretary.


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Aristophanes
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07 Sep 2015, 9:51 pm

Raptor wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority

Quote:
Only the President can direct the use of nuclear weapons, including the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). While the President does have unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to order that nuclear weapons be used for any reason at any time, the actual procedures and technical systems in place for authorizing the execution of a launch order requires a secondary confirmation under a two-man rule, as the President's order is subject to secondary confirmation by the Secretary of Defense. If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, then the President may in his sole discretion fire the Secretary.


Lol, what a great safeguard. You need a second opinion, but you can fire him if you don't like his answer-- how appropriately authoritarian.



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07 Sep 2015, 10:56 pm

Back in the Reagan years, there was a radar flub where the US military had gotten the idea the Soviets had launched an attack. Thankfully, no one in the Pentagon flew off the handle, and soon the mistake was realized. When reporters had asked Reagan about the possibility of "accidentally" launching on the Soviet Union, Reagan answered with: "Missiles can be recalled." No, they can't.
A President launching a nuclear attack doesn't have to be due to mental illness, but to just a terrible mistake. Let's just hope that future Presidents will have more smarts than Reagan in thinking: Well, I F'ed up; but it's okay, I can just order the nukes back!


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trayder
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07 Sep 2015, 11:07 pm

Excuse the brief aside.

@Raptor

Scientific socialism is a lot more subtle in its message to mankind than what we have seen to date. It contemplates a fully conscious and rational man devoid of instinctual auto pilot and acting out of an understanding of cause and effect. It would pay to read Capital and not listen to hearsay.

In addition, an objective man can function efficiently in capitalism whilst recognising the socialised potential in a conscious species.

Hijack off.



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07 Sep 2015, 11:09 pm

You would only have so much time to authenticate a potential launch against us from Russia before you become obligated to go ahead and launch a counterstrike.


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Last edited by Raptor on 07 Sep 2015, 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Sep 2015, 11:13 pm

trayder wrote:
Excuse the brief aside.

@Raptor

Scientific socialism is a lot more subtle in its message to mankind than what we have seen to date. It contemplates a fully conscious and rational man devoid of instinctual auto pilot and acting out of an understanding of cause and effect. It would pay to read Capital and not listen to hearsay.

In addition, an objective man can function efficiently in capitalism whilst recognising the socialised potential in a conscious species.

Hijack off.

Uh, wut?
And how does it relate to my last post whch is this?
Raptor wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority
Quote:
Only the President can direct the use of nuclear weapons, including the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). While the President does have unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to order that nuclear weapons be used for any reason at any time, the actual procedures and technical systems in place for authorizing the execution of a launch order requires a secondary confirmation under a two-man rule, as the President's order is subject to secondary confirmation by the Secretary of Defense. If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, then the President may in his sole discretion fire the Secretary.


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Humanaut
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08 Sep 2015, 12:28 am

Aristophanes wrote:
You need a second opinion, but you can fire him if you don't like his answer...

But it doesn't stop there. The Deputy Secretary of Defense might not follow orders either, and the next Deputy Secretary of Defense could also be a problem, and so on, and the military chain of command might be broken by disobedience before the order reaches the launch crews if it ever makes it past the Secretary of Defense (or the Deputy Secretary of Defense). Politics and nuclear weapons are too important to be left in the hands of politicians.



trayder
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08 Sep 2015, 12:58 am

I dont know how it works in the States but in both Britain and NZ, national security can be used by the executive to invoke war time powers.



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08 Sep 2015, 3:57 am

That is the same thing they used on Barry Goldwater.

His statement about Vietnam, nuke them or get out.

Suddenly he was a mad bomber.

What he meant was, this is not worth fighting.

Rudyard Kipling, "Do not get in a ground war in Asia."

So Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, I think we have proved that.

Whoever uses a nuke will cause every other nuke to be used.

There are no targets, North Korea shares borders with China, Russia, South Korea, and is close to japan.

Iraq borders a NATO country.

The first response will be the power goes out with the EMP blasts that will fry every circuit and transformer.

It will take years to replace them.

Nukes do make EMP weapons, but there is also a conventional method.

The main attack would be a Flu much worse than 1918.

Healthy to dead in twelve hours does not leave time to make a vaccine.



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08 Sep 2015, 3:30 pm

my point about Trump and the nuke button was kind of metaphorical for how a total meglomaniac nut job could at least mess up the world,
ie, start a few wars, provoke the Russians into their plan for cold war 2, piss of the Chinese and invade Mexico for kicks, set women back 50 years etc etc

The question is :
Is Trump a meglomaniac nut job?..
well I would say his utterances and his wispy rug indicate that he is. In a similar vein to Stalin and Herr Hitler who believed their own hype.

He genuinely thinks he is smarter than everyone on the planet. He thought he had a chance with Princess Di (who found him creepy)... the guy is delusional but immensely rich.

He needs a man at his shoulder repeatedly saying "Remember Caesar thou art mortal"



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08 Sep 2015, 4:25 pm

Peejay wrote:
my point about Trump and the nuke button was kind of metaphorical for how a total meglomaniac nut job could at least mess up the world,
ie, start a few wars, provoke the Russians into their plan for cold war 2, piss of the Chinese and invade Mexico for kicks, set women back 50 years etc etc

The question is :
Is Trump a meglomaniac nut job?..
well I would say his utterances and his wispy rug indicate that he is. In a similar vein to Stalin and Herr Hitler who believed their own hype.

He genuinely thinks he is smarter than everyone on the planet. He thought he had a chance with Princess Di (who found him creepy)... the guy is delusional but immensely rich.

He needs a man at his shoulder repeatedly saying "Remember Caesar thou art mortal"

I love this description. You nailed it.



Aristophanes
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08 Sep 2015, 5:03 pm

Peejay wrote:
He needs a man at his shoulder repeatedly saying "Remember Caesar thou art mortal"


Lol, so with a Trump presidency we'd basically need extra government employees just to keep his ego in check, how hypocritically appropriate for a Republican candidate.



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08 Sep 2015, 6:17 pm

Peejay wrote:
Is Trump a meglomaniac nut job?

Of course not. Trump is a humble man of reason. That's why the people love him so much. His recent rise in popularity among black and hispanic voters is a testament to that.



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08 Sep 2015, 7:27 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Peejay wrote:
Is Trump a meglomaniac nut job?

Of course not. Trump is a humble man of reason. That's why the people love him so much. His recent rise in popularity among black and hispanic voters is a testament to that.

Dream on...