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League_Girl
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24 Nov 2020, 2:51 pm

Honestly this whole thread had came off as "How to call someone a Nazi without actually calling them one." :wink:

Then it had evolved to "who should be called a fascist, Nazi, Racist, etc."

But this has all been entertaining to read.

Oh yeah and the reason why I may not quote posts is because I do it to try and avoid misunderstandings and I don't want the poster to think I am twisting their words or trying to start anything with them when it is not even directed at them. But I see this is not avoidable. Human kafka traps I call it. Or is it Murphy's Law created by humans. :scratch:


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magz
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24 Nov 2020, 3:39 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I guess it's fair to ask, how often have you seen that happen? Does it ever get reported? If it's a problem obviously it needs to be addressed, but how much of a problem is it at the moment? And does it mostly only ever occur when there's posters who do fit the term and others come to their defence?

Perhaps we could track reports, as well as how the reports were ultimately judged to see if it actually is a problem or if it's just being used as an excuse for some posters to shut down those who disagree with them.

In the hypothetical where a poster is expressing their support for a group like the Proud Boys, that poster will likely end up being called that but their actions kind of support the label. If another (more mainstream conservative) poster gets involved in defending Poster 1 they might in the context of that conflict appear to be sympathizing with fascism when it's more fair to say they're sympathizing with a fascist (as one of them, not all of them).

That would be a mess to moderate because Poster 2 probably isn't a fascist or a fascist sympathizer broadly, but they're literally doing exactly that on an individual level and pointing that out shouldn't warrant punishment even though it's predictable that hurt feelings will result.

For what it's with OP has commented that we all have missed his angle because we started bickering about (mostly old) drama on here and didn't realize he meant in the world beyond WP.

I'm sure you can understand why I'm touchy about posters twisting each others words in order to make reports given how it was done to me a few months back.

There's other posters who do that in order to make a strawman they can defeat instead of dealing with the actual quote and that's also a problem that should be dealt with, although since that isn't done to manipulate moderation into acting against anyone it's not quite the same problem.

Your question is fair. I don't keep statistics - there are logs of past reports but they don't contain outcomes. Looking past the last few pages of closed reports - no calling other users fascist recently but a lot of putting words in others' mouths.
A phenomenon fairly common is when two persons of different views read in each other's posts what is not really there. Spontanously generated straw men, no one intentionally constructs them, they emerge from assumptions and biases.

Whenever I can, I try to deconstruct them.

Also, keep in mind that we can be in various mental state. E.g. an autistic burnout can grant one tunnel vision in processing what others say. Someone who feels attacked, instinctively strikes back, even if the feeling is based solely on assumptions. That easily escalates, especially in the crazy times like now.

I don't intend to put anyone in trouble when I recommend refraining from calling people bad things. I try to define some boundaries preventing dramatic escalations.


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funeralxempire
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24 Nov 2020, 4:04 pm

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess it's fair to ask, how often have you seen that happen? Does it ever get reported? If it's a problem obviously it needs to be addressed, but how much of a problem is it at the moment? And does it mostly only ever occur when there's posters who do fit the term and others come to their defence?

Perhaps we could track reports, as well as how the reports were ultimately judged to see if it actually is a problem or if it's just being used as an excuse for some posters to shut down those who disagree with them.

In the hypothetical where a poster is expressing their support for a group like the Proud Boys, that poster will likely end up being called that but their actions kind of support the label. If another (more mainstream conservative) poster gets involved in defending Poster 1 they might in the context of that conflict appear to be sympathizing with fascism when it's more fair to say they're sympathizing with a fascist (as one of them, not all of them).

That would be a mess to moderate because Poster 2 probably isn't a fascist or a fascist sympathizer broadly, but they're literally doing exactly that on an individual level and pointing that out shouldn't warrant punishment even though it's predictable that hurt feelings will result.

For what it's with OP has commented that we all have missed his angle because we started bickering about (mostly old) drama on here and didn't realize he meant in the world beyond WP.

I'm sure you can understand why I'm touchy about posters twisting each others words in order to make reports given how it was done to me a few months back.

There's other posters who do that in order to make a strawman they can defeat instead of dealing with the actual quote and that's also a problem that should be dealt with, although since that isn't done to manipulate moderation into acting against anyone it's not quite the same problem.

Your question is fair. I don't keep statistics - there are logs of past reports but they don't contain outcomes. Looking past the last few pages of closed reports - no calling other users fascist recently but a lot of putting words in others' mouths.
A phenomenon fairly common is when two persons of different views read in each other's posts what is not really there. Spontanously generated straw men, no one intentionally constructs them, they emerge from assumptions and biases.

Whenever I can, I try to deconstruct them.

Also, keep in mind that we can be in various mental state. E.g. an autistic burnout can grant one tunnel vision in processing what others say. Someone who feels attacked, instinctively strikes back, even if the feeling is based solely on assumptions. That easily escalates, especially in the crazy times like now.

I don't intend to put anyone in trouble when I recommend refraining from calling people bad things. I try to define some boundaries preventing dramatic escalations.


The reason I'm interested in the statistical side of things is that might give clarification over how common a problem is and how often when it's reported the report is legitimate. It's hard to discuss a polarizing problem objectively without anything objective for reference. Instead you get a thread full of innuendo, unproven accusations and whataboutism.

As much as I'm clearly biased, I believe I'm also willing to take the issue serious, if it actually is as serious as is being claimed. Discussing past issues might be cathartic, discussing hypotheticals is interesting and allows us to have a frame work for how issues might be dealt with if they arise, but if we want to discuss an ongoing, real issue that impacts user experience, there needs to be a documented case or two for reference. Based on what I've seen in the past few months the problem being described just simply doesn't exist in the way it's being claimed to exist.

There's a user who I believe likely does intentionally misinterpret things as I described. I'll PM with examples if you'd like. It's too extreme and always follows the same pattern, which is what makes it appear to be intentional.

That said, I mostly agree that a lot of it comes from areas users are inherently weak in and that the responses are genuine. People who have communication issues and a tendency towards not conceiving of other's perspectives would be prone to misinterpreting each other's positions.


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League_Girl
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24 Nov 2020, 4:32 pm

Honestly when I deal with anyone twisting my words (yes they have patterns for me to think it's intentional), I just ignore them and not interact with them and not defend myself. I just figure they will leave me alone if I don't respond to them. Most of the time they get the hint and very few will just keep going at me I will come to a point to report them which is what I have done before only a couple times. Then days later they were back talking to me again but with a different tone and not twisting anything. I just let it slide. Maybe the reporting them did work.


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Tempus Fugit
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24 Nov 2020, 7:28 pm

None of them was ever really bullied or insulted on WP, it was just words being twisted by crybabies trying to get certain posters banned.



Pepe
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24 Nov 2020, 7:35 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Speaking subjective truth isn't a legitimate shield to make attacks.

And why does there have to be all this talk of punishment and banning like kids being sent to the headmaster or expelled?

How about "certain posters" just not acting like wokezilla all the time? This isn't Woke Planet.


Wokezillas have been conditioned by social influences, to be wokezillas.
They are not free independent thinkers.
Be nice. :mrgreen:



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24 Nov 2020, 7:38 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
None of them was ever really bullied or insulted on WP, it was just words being twisted by crybabies trying to get certain posters banned.


This is a new era.
I hope we can move on, from the past, and educate those who haven't readjusted to this change. 8)

League_Girl wrote:
cberg wrote:
That's why you're basically just trolling. You're quite correct I don't wish to associate asinine nonsense such as maintaining this as the main thread of a site for kids having a tough time...

Mods either lock this one or IP permaban us both, I don't want to be associated with a political climate tolerant of this any longer.



It would be sad to see you go. Another long term member lost. :(


It isn't going to happen. <comfort> :mrgreen:



Last edited by Pepe on 24 Nov 2020, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cberg
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24 Nov 2020, 7:42 pm

You're all wrong.


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24 Nov 2020, 7:48 pm

magz wrote:
Guys, I see too many personal insinuations in this thread that have appeared when I was asleep.


Simple solution: Don't go to sleep. :P :mrgreen:



League_Girl
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24 Nov 2020, 7:49 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
None of them was ever really bullied or insulted on WP, it was just words being twisted by crybabies trying to get certain posters banned.



Just when did you finally agree with us? :)

Or was that sarcasm? :scratch:


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Pepe
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24 Nov 2020, 7:53 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Wokezilla? I love it, it sounds funny.

BTW that term is considered a personal attack here. Someone had that comment edited out of their post by a mod when they called Alex that. :lol:


Being called a fascist or a nazi is a personal attack if no rationale can be given.
Insinuating a person is a fascist or a nazi is also against WP policy.

There is a hell of a lot of the latter going on, on WP. :wink:



funeralxempire
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24 Nov 2020, 7:55 pm

Pepe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Wokezilla? I love it, it sounds funny.

BTW that term is considered a personal attack here. Someone had that comment edited out of their post by a mod when they called Alex that. :lol:


Being called a fascist or a nazi is a personal attack if no rationale can be given.
Insinuating a person is a fascist or a nazi is also against WP policy.

There is a hell of a lot of the latter going on, on WP. :wink:


Which person has faced this accusation or insinuation recently? Can you provide an example? Insisting someone has insinuated something isn't the same as it actually occurring, especially without evidence. :wink:


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24 Nov 2020, 7:56 pm

cberg wrote:
I really hope the mods lock this & realize we are dealing with the same devil-may-care blinders-up attitude here that we have seen a thousand times before.

I don't think you are a nazi. You are nothing above them unless you exemplify it however.


What does this mean? :scratch:



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24 Nov 2020, 7:58 pm

It means simply saying you're great doesn't make you better than anyone. It means that if you don't want us to think you're a fascist, you shouldn't be doing their bidding. It means you're full of big words & very little substance.

Pepe wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Speaking subjective truth isn't a legitimate shield to make attacks.

And why does there have to be all this talk of punishment and banning like kids being sent to the headmaster or expelled?

How about "certain posters" just not acting like wokezilla all the time? This isn't Woke Planet.


Wokezillas have been conditioned by social influences, to be wokezillas.
They are not free independent thinkers.
Be nice. :mrgreen:


We need to invent pejoratives for "free thinkers" now. I can't believe mods are putting up with this. Just because you say you're above us all is not an excuse to be a dick. Be nice.

There is no such thing as independent thought anyway. Pepe isn't saying anything original here, just stirring the pot with a trendy new alt-right vernacular. Just because we see things differently is not an excuse to talk s**t straight to our faces.


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24 Nov 2020, 8:06 pm

magz wrote:
"Wokezilla" is an insult, too.


Yes, but a bloody good one. lol!



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24 Nov 2020, 8:09 pm

Your behaviour reminds me of something but several of you are going to throw a petulant little fit if I put a word to it, so I won't antagonize you with the truth.


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