Is there any proof God exists?

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Mmmm... What "Christian ideal"? Do you mean the ideal that the purveyors of perversity and nonsense arbitrarily impose demanding "tolerance", "respect" and "acceptance" so that they can rampage around filling vulnerable heads with nonsense without fear of effective challenge?

I'm not forgetting the "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees" bit...

How about we form an alliance; you do the Good Samaritan bit pouring oil on bruised egos while I get on with my sword and cudgel?

Both sides say this about each other, that the other side is suffering under wishful thinking. And can I say, been there, done that and bought the t-shirt.

I reckon it's about time we went beyond that kind of position, because it still suggests a subjective arrogance.
(If I say that nicely enough, do I get a gold star?)


Just as I clung to my Christianity for as long as I could. If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

OMG!!
Biblical version of good-cop bad-cop.
ROFLASTC!!

There was lots of "good cop-bad cop" stuff going on in Biblical times.

What? It's not a modern story device? Damn.. lol

A short, but entirely sufficient, another example of your slick salesmanship using glib assertions to create a false impression. If you were using such tactics to sell laundry powder the Department of Consumer Affairs would be right onto you with a lawsuit.

If you are going to start claiming logic you should at least know what it is. Here's a thorough treatment of the stuff:
The Science of Logic
A Course in the Formal and Material Principles of Right Reason
Patrick W.McCloskey

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248825418/Pat ... 010#scribd

I would use a different method to sell laundry powder. I would make use of empirical evidence.

You seem to be implying that empirical evidence should be used to sell laundry powder but not ideological fads.

Let's begin (again) with empirical evidence. It is evidence from observation and experiment. Simple!
I have, to the limit of my patience and endurance, already shown that "Evolutionary Materialism" is philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically impossible according to all the empirical evidence that ever has been, or is now, available.

One would think that an ordinarily reasonable mind would think "Ooo! This is serious! I'd better look into it! I might have been duped."

But no. My experience suggests that there is a pathological irrationality that I will call "chronic intellectualistic narcissism". (I am supposing that we're mostly aware of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder kind of narcissism that eats people as if their only worth is food for the narcissist). This other kind of narcissist eats reason; that is, they arbitrarily assume that their opinions are the sum of reality and reason and they cannot conceive or comprehend any reality or reason that could transcend their convenience.

Fairly recently there have been a few idealised "Spergic" types appearing in media stories... socially uncomfortable and inept, preoccupied with analysis of everything (fair enough). But the egomaniacal fringe have jumped on the Band Wagon to gain sympathy and credibility.

I would hope that eventually there will be a "diagnostic" distinction between 'Spergics and narcissists... but I won't hold my breath.

Anyhow, pertinent to this thread; I contend that there is compelling evidence that an uncaused First Cause is a logical necessity. Uncaused First Cause does not imply anyone's fanciful idea of "God".

I also say that natural science (philosophy) is independent of any "scripture" or anyone's version or interpretation of such. The Bible is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

You've got me there. No argument.

You have done no such thing. All you've done is repeat over and over that something that doesn't exist can't cause itself to exist per the Big Bang. But you don't know that. You just assume that because you haven't observed it here on earth (although people with a better understanding of quantum physics than mine- which is a low bar- are showing that maybe that's not true). But who knows what happened before the Big Bang? You don't and I don't. Applying the label "God" to what happened does not increase your understanding. It just gives the illusion that you've figured it out.



Take a tip from AngelRho. Insults don't advance your argument.



It isn't a logical necessity. There could also be eternity-no beginning but only the appearance of a beginning because Big Bang is all we have evidence for. But how is Uncaused First Cause not your idea of God. What is God in every religion with a singular God but the Uncaused First Cause?



How bizarre. We agree. Natural science really is independent of scripture and the Bible is irrelevant to this discussion. Why then did you go on about geological evidence being falsified elsewhere if you aren't a Young Earth Creationist?

I just believe the best selling-point of laundry detergent is that it cleans clothes.

It's best when I see the results of two laundry detergents side-by-side.

When I first got into this kind of thing, I was prone to making similar kinds of statements. I thought that was acceptable. It was commonplace, SOP for anti-theists. As often happens, someone will hit me with something that completely stumps me, and in one particular case I recall being taken to task for ad hom arguments. Something similar happened over a strawman that I'd apparently used. Bear in mind it wasn't something I did consciously. It's just that I'd seen the other side use those tactics, figured it was fine, and I hadn't yet gone quite so far to see exactly where I'd gone wrong. So it was confusing when I'd borrow someone else's tactics and get the rug pulled out from under me. It's pretty obvious how to do that effectively: Make people responsible for their own mistakes.

The easiest way to call someone out on it is by doing nothing…ignore it and it will go away. Mockery answered with mockery just leads to more mockery. Stick to the facts and premises and that will get rid of most of it. Once a strawman or ad hom becomes a central part of argumentation, i.e. the discussion cannot survive without the mistake being present, that's a good time to call foul. The argument will fall apart by itself with no further help.

Did my eyes deceive me, or did Dent call me a prick earlier? Coming from Dent, that's actually a pretty high compliment. Thanks!

Anyway, not sure how much more useful I can be here. I think for the time being, I'm just gonna sit back and eat my popcorn. Y'all have fun now!

If you're still there, Angel Rho, this isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand but can you tell me who initiated the barbaric idea of stoning as described in the OT? And who was the wicked prophet who cursed a group of boys for teasing him, so that bears came from the woods to kill them? Just for being insulted. If the majority of Aspies did that today, there would be few folk left alive!

To be honest, if God truly exists He would be really high tech and much more advanced than us. On a far higher plane of cosmic consciousness. Not primitive and bloodthirsty as indicated in many parts of the Old Testament, which was written at a time in history when bloodthirstiness and brute survival was par for the course.

Well, you are NOT GOING TO get any clear distinctions between Asperger's Syndrome and Personality Disorders, as research shows they are commonly co-morbid conditions.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5098828

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705351/



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705351/table/T4/

Narcissism is fairly rare and Anti-social Personality disorder is almost non-existent, per the study at hand.

Let's face IT.. even thoUGH IT.. IS heRe and tHere.. the Universe IS GOD per ALL that IS.. and Stephen Hawking.. a 'leader' of 'nerd scientists' alREADY suggests that the Universe createS itself.. without the need of another cause...

So even Stephen Hawking.. the KING OF NERDS.. agrees with you.. already as such...

What the hell are you really arguing about...

Or do you just like to argue to FEEL SOMETHING.....

A COMMON SYMPTOM... of something else....

Just another co-morbid..

per associated issues with Alexithymia..

Perhaps.. BUT I FOR ONE AM NOT GONNA ARMCHAIR YOU!..

I think David merely wants an escape--and his escape is arguing on WrongPlanet, playing the Iconoclast role.

He's actually a model citizen in real life. Then he puts on the cape...and all hell breaks loose in his mind!

I think that is the reason most folks are here, and it certainly was for me at first...

I left here for three months on an imposed 'leave of unpaid absence'.. and I DID NOT MISS IT AT ALL..

BUT THAT was before more open-minded thinking is allowed here.. as it is now..... by neutral moderation instead of moderation with an agenda....

Where open minds go.. i visit... where closed minds live.. i leave.....